Starting Pitchers - Early Happenings

Started by MongoLikeSox, November 10, 2022, 08:49:03 AM

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MongoLikeSox

SOME of the murkiness is lifting off the 2023 Starting Rotation. It's not too dissimilar to last season's disaster except our two best starters are likely gone. A few of the injured and some of the kids are a little further ahead of where they were last year. I see 9 guys in the rotation mix and 4 more soon to be on the 40-man Roster for protection.   

A lot of issues in play here ranging from 40-man roster crunches to durability to endless individual player question marks. The way I see it, the best of what we currently have is a $40M rotation filled with flyers(Injuries), unproven youth(experience and injuries) and a spirited 5th starter.

If we keep this group as is, that's 13 out of the 20-ish pitching spots on the 40-man roster. One obvious consideration is to swing guys like Houck and Crawford. That can only go so far, though and puts a player's development into a risky place. (Darwinson Hernandez, anyone?) We'll need a bunch of BP guys from the outside world to come in.

So yes, some of this staff has to go. Bloom is going to have to trade, non-tender and DFA a few of his player "currency" or "collateral" or whatever he likes to call them. Right now, we have a stable full of 8th-9th organizational starters and no room for an experienced bullpen. Another lop-sided Bloom 40-man roster, coming right up! 

As everyone knows from yesterday's news.....

  • James Paxton exercised his player option. (I was hoping he would, albeit for the right reasons. Obviously TBD.)
  • Whitlock has been told to train as a starter.
  • Houck has been told to train as a starter, but his role is less certain. (Again)

And what we already knew:

  • Nick "Mr Consistency" Pivetta Well, he does at least start every time his spot rolls around. He's got one more plateau to climb - quality starts on a more regular basis.
  • The Chris Sale health saga. He hopes to be ready - again.
  • Brayan Bello seems to be everyones favorite up and coming starter. As others have pointed out, historically, we don't fare well in that department.
  • Connor Seabold hoping to break through.
  • Josh Winckowski hoping to break through.
  • Cutter Crawford hoping to break through. (I think he became a serious candidate to stick after developing that Curve.)

In the wings, probably on the 40-man to avoid being snatched up on Rule-5 day.

  • Thad Ward
  • Bryan Mata (40-man Roster)
  • Brandon Walter
  • Chris Murphy

External considerations

  • Does Nasty Nate comeback via QO, one year recovery deal, mid-grade Free Agent despite slowing velocity?
  • Does Wacha - There's still far too many questions around Wacha.
  • Rich Hill - Just mentioning him because we sort of liked him about every 3rd start?
  • Chasing after other free agents
  • Chasing Trade options

Nobody expected anything by this point yet. It's early. I was trying to make some sense of the mess over coffee this morning. 

Sea Dog 23

#1
Free agenc y kicks off at 5PM today.  Sox and Angels now showing interest in Tyler Anderson one of. LAD s top pitchers.  Of note he likely comes with a QO.  Sox being over the LTT, the QO costs us draft picks(s) and $1 mil in international signing budget.

Another pitcher  Boston is engaging is Kodai Senga from the  Japanese league (140 IP, 3.54 era, 2.9 WAR). Also looking at  Seth Lugo (Mets) and Heaney(LAD), but he has  had health  issues over  the years.

SeaBeachFred

Quote from: MongoLikeSox on November 10, 2022, 08:49:03 AM
SOME of the murkiness is lifting off the 2023 Starting Rotation. It's not too dissimilar to last season's disaster except our two best starters are likely gone. A few of the injured and some of the kids are a little further ahead of where they were last year. I see 9 guys in the rotation mix and 4 more soon to be on the 40-man Roster for protection.   

A lot of issues in play here ranging from 40-man roster crunches to durability to endless individual player question marks. The way I see it, the best of what we currently have is a $40M rotation filled with flyers(Injuries), unproven youth(experience and injuries) and a spirited 5th starter.

If we keep this group as is, that's 13 out of the 20-ish pitching spots on the 40-man roster. One obvious consideration is to swing guys like Houck and Crawford. That can only go so far, though and puts a player's development into a risky place. (Darwinson Hernandez, anyone?) We'll need a bunch of BP guys from the outside world to come in.

So yes, some of this staff has to go. Bloom is going to have to trade, non-tender and DFA a few of his player "currency" or "collateral" or whatever he likes to call them. Right now, we have a stable full of 8th-9th organizational starters and no room for an experienced bullpen. Another lop-sided Bloom 40-man roster, coming right up! 

As everyone knows from yesterday's news.....

  • James Paxton exercised his player option. (I was hoping he would, albeit for the right reasons. Obviously TBD.)
  • Whitlock has been told to train as a starter.
  • Houck has been told to train as a starter, but his role is less certain. (Again)

And what we already knew:

  • Nick "Mr Consistency" Pivetta Well, he does at least start every time his spot rolls around. He's got one more plateau to climb - quality starts on a more regular basis.
  • The Chris Sale health saga. He hopes to be ready - again.
  • Brayan Bello seems to be everyones favorite up and coming starter. As others have pointed out, historically, we don't fare well in that department.
  • Connor Seabold hoping to break through.
  • Josh Winckowski hoping to break through.
  • Cutter Crawford hoping to break through. (I think he became a serious candidate to stick after developing that Curve.)

In the wings, probably on the 40-man to avoid being snatched up on Rule-5 day.

  • Thad Ward
  • Bryan Mata (40-man Roster)
  • Brandon Walter
  • Chris Murphy

External considerations

  • Does Nasty Nate comeback via QO, one year recovery deal, mid-grade Free Agent despite slowing velocity?
  • Does Wacha - There's still far too many questions around Wacha.
  • Rich Hill - Just mentioning him because we sort of liked him about every 3rd start?
  • Chasing after other free agents
  • Chasing Trade options

Nobody expected anything by this point yet. It's early. I was trying to make some sense of the mess over coffee this morning.

Winkowski, Crawford and Seabold????????  They were absolutely shitty to the max this past season and their chances of "breaking through" depends on breaking through what.  If it through the horsepucky performances of this season....FORGET IT!!!!!!!!  They showed little or nothing except jerking their heads when balls went screaming past them over them and under them.  and no more of  Rich Hill.  He belongs in a pasture somewhere.   Did Isay that Verlander is now a free agent as is Rodan?  We need solid starting pitching, not a bunch of worthless turds that disgraced themselves, the fans and their teammates in 2022.  Prune Face has to open his wallet and start spending some real money on some real talent.

Sea Dog 23

News that Sox gave the qualifying offers to Eovadi and Bogey, of course.  I’m surprised Wacha was not QO’d.  He was a very effective pitcher IMO this year.  Nate seemed to have lost a lot of velocity coming off his recent injury.

“Red Sox have extended the qualifying offer to Xander Bogaerts and Nate Eovaldi, per sources. As of late last night, there had been some early, early conversations between the Sox and Eovaldi about a multi-year deal but nothing close.”

elktonnick

Here is a creative thought Eovaldi as closer.

MongoLikeSox

Quote from: elktonnick on November 10, 2022, 06:21:11 PM
Here is a creative thought Eovaldi as closer.
They tried that and it didn't work. I forgot which season.

On a similar notion, I think lots of folks would like to see Sale make that switch.

MongoLikeSox

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on November 10, 2022, 02:29:12 PM
Free agenc y kicks off at 5PM today.  Sox and Angels now showing interest in Tyler Anderson one of. LAD s top pitchers.  Of note he likely comes with a QO.  Sox being over the LTT, the QO costs us draft picks(s) and $1 mil in international signing budget.

Another pitcher  Boston is engaging is Kodai Senga from the  Japanese league (140 IP, 3.54 era, 2.9 WAR). Also looking at  Seth Lugo (Mets) and Heaney(LAD), but he has  had health  issues over  the years.
Leave it to Boston to chase after a 32 year old semi-Journeyman with exactly one good season under his belt. Granted, it was a GREAT season. Before that, he had a career that looked like Pivetta's mid-4 ERA.

MongoLikeSox

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on November 10, 2022, 04:59:36 PM
News that Sox gave the qualifying offers to Eovadi and Bogey, of course.  I’m surprised Wacha was not QO’d.  He was a very effective pitcher IMO this year.  Nate seemed to have lost a lot of velocity coming off his recent injury.

“Red Sox have extended the qualifying offer to Xander Bogaerts and Nate Eovaldi, per sources. As of late last night, there had been some early, early conversations between the Sox and Eovaldi about a multi-year deal but nothing close.”
I'm surprised, too, that Wacha did not get one. Disappointed might be a better word, actually.

MongoLikeSox

Quote from: SeaBeachFred on November 10, 2022, 03:47:12 PM
......
Winkowski, Crawford and Seabold????????  They were absolutely shitty to the max this past season and their chances of "breaking through" depends on breaking through what.  If it through the horsepucky performances of this season....FORGET IT!!!!!!!!  They showed little or nothing except jerking their heads when balls went screaming past them over them and under them.  and no more of  Rich Hill.  He belongs in a pasture somewhere.   Did Isay that Verlander is now a free agent as is Rodan?  We need solid starting pitching, not a bunch of worthless turds that disgraced themselves, the fans and their teammates in 2022.  Prune Face has to open his wallet and start spending some real money on some real talent.
I'm in absolute agreement about Seabold and close to it on Winckoski.

I think Crawford rebounded well from his all fast pitch arsenal start when he came back with that nice curve-ball. He had some effective outings.

Seabold got hit hard with his control being not what it was in AAA. That said, they also hit his good pitches(Change-up. IIRC) that did drop well OR they let it go for a Ball. To me, he's a Chris Weber type. Organizational depth at best. 

Winckowski is the tough one for me to decide on. Like Seabold, he needs to be a great control pitcher. It was not there. His AAA out pitch might not have gotten creamed like Seabold's did, but it got nobody out, either. Batters fouled it off and waited for the forthcoming cement-mixer to cream and drive in the runners on base that had just been walked.

Both of these guys were the real prizes for two our current regime's trades. Just thought another jab was in order. LOL

SeaBeachFred

Quote from: MongoLikeSox on November 11, 2022, 09:08:12 AM
Quote from: SeaBeachFred on November 10, 2022, 03:47:12 PM
......
Winkowski, Crawford and Seabold????????  They were absolutely shitty to the max this past season and their chances of "breaking through" depends on breaking through what.  If it through the horsepucky performances of this season....FORGET IT!!!!!!!!  They showed little or nothing except jerking their heads when balls went screaming past them over them and under them.  and no more of  Rich Hill.  He belongs in a pasture somewhere.   Did Isay that Verlander is now a free agent as is Rodan?  We need solid starting pitching, not a bunch of worthless turds that disgraced themselves, the fans and their teammates in 2022.  Prune Face has to open his wallet and start spending some real money on some real talent.
I'm in absolute agreement about Seabold and close to it on Winckoski.

I think Crawford rebounded well from his all fast pitch arsenal start when he came back with that nice curve-ball. He had some effective outings.

Seabold got hit hard with his control being not what it was in AAA. That said, they also hit his good pitches(Change-up. IIRC) that did drop well OR they let it go for a Ball. To me, he's a Chris Weber type. Organizational depth at best. 

Winckowski is the tough one for me to decide on. Like Seabold, he needs to be a great control pitcher. It was not there. His AAA out pitch might not have gotten creamed like Seabold's did, but it got nobody out, either. Batters fouled it off and waited for the forthcoming cement-mixer to cream and drive in the runners on base that had just been walked.

Both of these guys were the real prizes for two our current regime's trades. Just thought another jab was in order. LOL

RIGHT NOW MONGO EVERYTHING POINTS TO BLOOM LOOKING FOR BARGAINS AND DOING SOME DEEP SEA DUMPSTER DIVING.  I HAVE HEARD NOTHING ANYWHERE THAT POINTS TO THE TEAM MAKING A CONCERTED BID FOR THE LIKES OF RODAN, VERLANDER OR DEGROM, JUST SOME INTEREST IN MIDDLINGS OR SUSPECTS.  SO FAR, NOT SO GOOD AT ALL.

Sea Dog 23

Quote from: MongoLikeSox on November 11, 2022, 09:08:12 AM
Quote from: SeaBeachFred on November 10, 2022, 03:47:12 PM
......
Winkowski, Crawford and Seabold????????  They were absolutely shitty to the max this past season and their chances of "breaking through" depends on breaking through what.  If it through the horsepucky performances of this season....FORGET IT!!!!!!!!  They showed little or nothing except jerking their heads when balls went screaming past them over them and under them.  and no more of  Rich Hill.  He belongs in a pasture somewhere.   Did Isay that Verlander is now a free agent as is Rodan?  We need solid starting pitching, not a bunch of worthless turds that disgraced themselves, the fans and their teammates in 2022.  Prune Face has to open his wallet and start spending some real money on some real talent.
I'm in absolute agreement about Seabold and close to it on Winckoski.

I think Crawford rebounded well from his all fast pitch arsenal start when he came back with that nice curve-ball. He had some effective outings.

Seabold got hit hard with his control being not what it was in AAA. That said, they also hit his good pitches(Change-up. IIRC) that did drop well OR they let it go for a Ball. To me, he's a Chris Weber type. Organizational depth at best. 

Winckowski is the tough one for me to decide on. Like Seabold, he needs to be a great control pitcher. It was not there. His AAA out pitch might not have gotten creamed like Seabold's did, but it got nobody out, either. Batters fouled it off and waited for the forthcoming cement-mixer to cream and drive in the runners on base that had just been walked.

Both of these guys were the real prizes for two our current regime's trades. Just thought another jab was in order. LOL

Mongo, I read a synopsis of all of the Bloom trade results from the beginning.  Only Verdugo, who they are somewhat unhappy with his 2022, and Pivetta were his pluses.  Pivetta is a tough, reliable starter until he pitches against the AL East.  All those other minor leagues from trades are stuck in the mud.

MongoLikeSox

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on November 12, 2022, 06:44:25 AM
Mongo, I read a synopsis of all of the Bloom trade results from the beginning.  Only Verdugo, who they are somewhat unhappy with his 2022, and Pivetta were his pluses.  Pivetta is a tough, reliable starter until he pitches against the AL East.  All those other minor leagues from trades are stuck in the mud.
Is it the Red Sox, Press or both that are somewhat unhappy with Verdugo?

My take on him is overall positive, but there were a few areas of improvement I didn't think we'd be talking about at this point.

Pivetta, too. He might be the one dumpster-diving trade return that worked out so far. He makes his starts and competes. Question is, does he have the proper development and coaching staff around him to help make him better? He'll mature and settle down a bit. He's the kind of pitcher I always wondered why the Red Sox never seemed to be able to get. The 4th and 5th rotation spots always seemed to be elusive in terms of quality. Perhaps a year without being the defacto ace will help?

Look at what Dombrowski traded away over the years.

MongoLikeSox

Quote from: SeaBeachFred on November 11, 2022, 02:59:06 PM
RIGHT NOW MONGO EVERYTHING POINTS TO BLOOM LOOKING FOR BARGAINS AND DOING SOME DEEP SEA DUMPSTER DIVING.  I HAVE HEARD NOTHING ANYWHERE THAT POINTS TO THE TEAM MAKING A CONCERTED BID FOR THE LIKES OF RODAN, VERLANDER OR DEGROM, JUST SOME INTEREST IN MIDDLINGS OR SUSPECTS.  SO FAR, NOT SO GOOD AT ALL.
Indeed, it does look like the same old Bloom so far. I've seen nothing to indicate otherwise.

Sea Dog 23

It looks like the Sox have a glut of players in and around the 40 man, and no way they can protect all the talent we want to keep.  Some rumblings of a trade of 3 for 1 to get an outfielder.

Alex Speier of the Globe says inquiries have been made for Bryan Reynolds of Pirates, Haniger of Seattle and a group outfielders with the Diamondbacks, including Jake McCarthy and Alec Thomas, a young CF that would cost less than Reynolds.  Also exploring Sean Murphy of Oakland to be our catcher.   The Reynolds deal would have an asking price of possibly two of , Bello- Casas - Mayer - York - Bleis, primarily because Reynolds still is under control for 3 years.  Alec Thomas batted only .231 for Arizona in 2021, but has been a consistent .300+ hitter in the minors.  Value, value, value, that's the first the chapters of Bloom's bible.

SeaBeachFred

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on November 13, 2022, 08:44:44 AM
It looks like the Sox have a glut of players in and around the 40 man, and no way they can protect all the talent we want to keep.  Some rumblings of a trade of 3 for 1 to get an outfielder.

Alex Speier of the Globe says inquiries have been made for Bryan Reynolds of Pirates, Haniger of Seattle and a group outfielders with the Diamondbacks, including Jake McCarthy and Alec Thomas, a young CF that would cost less than Reynolds.  Also exploring Sean Murphy of Oakland to be our catcher.   The Reynolds deal would have an asking price of possibly two of , Bello- Casas - Mayer - York - Bleis, primarily because Reynolds still is under control for 3 years.  Alec Thomas batted only .231 for Arizona in 2021, but has been a consistent .300+ hitter in the minors.  Value, value, value, that's the first the chapters of Bloom's bible.

Some teams are taking it cautiously in the beginning of the Hot Stove League goings on and for the decent teams that may be a good way to approach things, BUT IT IS NOT A GOOD WAY FOR THE  REDSOX to go about it.  We were absolutely shitty  this past season and the moves dumbo Blommer Boy made mostly blew up in his stupid face.  He has already filled up our 40 man roster with a bunch of those bums he traded for who for the most part shit the bed this past season.  He needs to climb out of the dumpster and make some serious moves for some solid players.  Murphy and Reynolds look like good pickups if the rumors are true that Bloom is looking into them but knowing what we know about that bum he will probably decide on more prospects to load us down with too many and wind up trading the better ones and keeping the turds.  He either needs to barf away his miserable performances in those areas or get out of dodge.  And what is Henry doing except playing hide and seek with those who want to know what the hell he is up to and what he is going to do about his miserable team that he helped destroy?