The disastrous consequences of letting Schwarber go and trading Renfroe are grounds enough to fire Bloom. However, his biggest failure was his inability to get quality bullpen arms. Bloom is determined to remake Boston in the image of Tampa Bay. At this the Red Sox will be averaging 10 000 per game just like the Rays.
Quote from: elktonnick on July 18, 2022, 10:25:16 AM
The disastrous consequences of letting Schwarber go and trading Renfroe are grounds enough to fire Bloom. However, his biggest failure was his inability to get quality bullpen arms. Bloom is determined to remake Boston in the image of Tampa Bay. At this the Red Sox will be averaging 10 000 per game just like the Rays.
Trying to become the Rays is an insult to Tampa Bay. They are a quality, every year contender. Way better coaching and scouting than Boston.
I have to agree. The Sox are about to have a fan uprising on their hands. They've mismanaged this team at every level and in every way possible since fielding their best team ever in 2018. They shy away from big contracts in a league where big contracts make the game. John Henry and company have made the mistake for a long time for thinking they make the market, not realizing that the players make it. Look at Soto. Look at some of the other huge contracts that are out there. That's where the game is. The Yankees manage to put a home run hitting all star at every position, while the Sox hope one of the three guys who can hit is coming out of his latest slump. They make bad long term contracts and don't strike gold on the small ones. Just failure after failure.
With the current lineup, I don't know what to think anymore. What happened to Arroyo? Why was Story not on the IL for a week until Friday? Why do guys have small injuries and disappear for months? Why are guys like Beeks and Springs, who couldn't get an out in Boston, shutting us down when we face the Rays? Why is Martin Perez a bum here and a stud in Texas?
This team is a total mess. Between them and the Panthers I can't wait for hockey season.
I think one of the reasons for the Sox woes is they have rejected long time basic baseball fundamentals. Their collective approach toward hitting drives Hall of Famer Jim Rice nuts. Their approach towards pitching drives Hall of Famer Dennis Eckersley crazy. They are a team without a leader and Cora is adopting more and more the Alfred E. Newman "What me worry" school of management. Henry is becoming more and more an owner who does not want to invest in a quality on the field product. He will be literally giving away tickets to attract fans at this rate. Henry needs to understand that his real competition isn't the Yankees but the Bruins, Celtics, and Patriots.
Quote from: elktonnick on July 18, 2022, 12:16:32 PM
I think one of the reasons for the Sox woes is they have rejected long time basic baseball fundamentals. Their collective approach toward hitting drives Hall of Famer Jim Rice nuts. Their approach towards pitching drives Hall of Famer Dennis Eckersley crazy. They are a team without a leader and Cora is adopting more and more the Alfred E. Newman "What me worry" school of management. Henry is becoming more and more an owner who does not want to invest in a quality on the field product. He will be literally giving away tickets to attract fans at this rate. Henry needs to understand that his real competition isn't the Yankees but the Bruins, Celtics, and Patriots.
Elk, when Hall of Fame slugger Jim Rice and Hall of Famer Dennis Eckersley talk, you would think Cora, Bloom and Henry would listen. Rice was a power hitter but when he got a high strike he didn't launch angle it but hit down and level and roped one extra base hit after another; Eck knew getting ahead of the batter was paramount to establish himself with the advantage over a hitter b getting ahead of the count. Very rarely did he nibble and that one time I remember it cost him the first game of the '88 World Series when he had to face Kirk Gibson after walking a batter with two outs. But Elk, I guess no one is listening to them. Cora should because either he or his batting and pitching coaches seem in a trance to make the changes in approach both on the hill and in the batter's box to make any kind of a difference. Maybe if Red Sox fans develop some balls they will boycott the games and refuse to watch this shitshow on television. I'm doing my small part my friend.......I have postponed two trips to Boston this year because I want to see smart, winning baseball not a bunch odf clowns in action and led by a pack jerks who are driving out team into the ditch.
On Arroyo, he has some sort of groin injury. Kind of got ignored because of so much else going on.
I was never for the Schwarber deal. I was wrong. He turned out to be a great offensively. On re-signing him for good money? Not for me. While he is leading the league in Home Runs, he's violating every argument we're railing the Red Sox about for hitting approach. He's only hitting .208 and has whopping 120K's in 90 games. He's going to blast away his career high in K's. Come October when the air is cool and the pitching is great, he's become even less a factor. I'm not even going to bring up defense.
Imagine Bobby Dalbec playing in Philly and giving free reign to strike out as often as it takes to hit a homer aver 5 days?
The Bloom should go? I've not decided yet. Let's see how he digs himself out of this mess. An early sign might be day-2 of the draft. Quite a few polished college relievers. Doesn't do us any good this year, but it might help starting in 2024.
Quote from: MongoLikeSox on July 19, 2022, 09:48:41 AM
On Arroyo, he has some sort of groin injury. Kind of got ignored because of so much else going on.
I was never for the Schwarber deal. I was wrong. He turned out to be a great offensively. On re-signing him for good money? Not for me. While he is leading the league in Home Runs, he's violating every argument we're railing the Red Sox about for hitting approach. He's only hitting .208 and has whopping 120K's in 90 games. He's going to blast away his career high in K's. Come October when the air is cool and the pitching is great, he's become even less a factor. I'm not even going to bring up defense.
Imagine Bobby Dalbec playing in Philly and giving free reign to strike out as often as it takes to hit a homer aver 5 days?
The Bloom should go? I've not decided yet. Let's see how he digs himself out of this mess. An early sign might be day-2 of the draft. Quite a few polished college relievers. Doesn't do us any good this year, but it might help starting in 2024.
I don't see how signing a guy in the 7th round who may be able to play in 5 years is going to save Bloom. He needs to respond decisively one way or another - either go all in on getting a lot of help now, or freeing up salary so they can go after guys in the offseason. I fear he's going to do half of the latter - get rid of guys and then try to field a low payroll team. That of course would make Devers look elsewhere to which is probably part of the plan. There just hasn't been much competence shown by Bloom at all and it's getting tired.
Quote from: longgame on July 19, 2022, 10:06:46 AM
Quote from: MongoLikeSox on July 19, 2022, 09:48:41 AM
On Arroyo, he has some sort of groin injury. Kind of got ignored because of so much else going on.
I was never for the Schwarber deal. I was wrong. He turned out to be a great offensively. On re-signing him for good money? Not for me. While he is leading the league in Home Runs, he's violating every argument we're railing the Red Sox about for hitting approach. He's only hitting .208 and has whopping 120K's in 90 games. He's going to blast away his career high in K's. Come October when the air is cool and the pitching is great, he's become even less a factor. I'm not even going to bring up defense.
Imagine Bobby Dalbec playing in Philly and giving free reign to strike out as often as it takes to hit a homer aver 5 days?
The Bloom should go? I've not decided yet. Let's see how he digs himself out of this mess. An early sign might be day-2 of the draft. Quite a few polished college relievers. Doesn't do us any good this year, but it might help starting in 2024.
I don't see how signing a guy in the 7th round who may be able to play in 5 years is going to save Bloom. He needs to respond decisively one way or another - either go all in on getting a lot of help now, or freeing up salary so they can go after guys in the offseason. I fear he's going to do half of the latter - get rid of guys and then try to field a low payroll team. That of course would make Devers look elsewhere to which is probably part of the plan. There just hasn't been much competence shown by Bloom at all and it's getting tired.
I was referring to a philosophical change and now understanding how relief itching is actually important. Nothing yesterday saves him. The next two weeks might, though. TBD. Alas, he needs more than just a couple more arms now.
I think Bloom believes he’s the smartest man in the room. And he’ll show everybody that next week. The Yanks will do the unthinkable and trade with the Nats for Soto. Then Bloom will trade with the Nats for 1B Josh Bell. He is bored, has to do something, and that’s how he finishes this year.
Right now I'm reading for the second time "HOME GROWN", the Red Sox story of building the next great Boston team, that of our 2018 Champions. What we're seeing now is the total deconstruction of that method of building and perhaps a desperation move to redo what we did between 2016-2018 to finally get us looking like a real ball club instead of a doddering bunch of clowns. Back in our second last place finish in a row in 2015, prune face hired Dave Dombrowski to become head of Baseball Operations and he inherited some good young players drafted that might be ready to roll. However, unlike Ben Cherington who tended to hoard prospects for fear of their going elsewhere and coming back to haunt the Red Sox on some other team. Dan decided we had a chance to win sooner than later and wound up signing lefty David Price as an expensive free agent for the 2016 season and then Chris Sale for he 2017 season. He had to trade away a bunch of prospects that we didn't miss because we already had their replacements in the lineup by 2017----Betts, Bogaerts, Benintendi, Vazquez, Devers,etc. Adding those two pitchers and then signing JD Martinez before the 2018 season told everyone that we would sacrifice down the road in need be to finally get back over the hump. The result 2018?
In 2019 for reasons only he knows, owner John Henry started deconstructing the team by putting Betts up for sale, hired Chaim Bloom, a Cherington type for collecting and hoarding prospects. In 2020 Betts was traded away and Benintendi soon followed. You see the result to today for that way of thinking. Now there are rumblings that the prune wants to win again and is getting tired of seeing his shitshow look like the clowns they are. Henry has done this before; can't seem to make up his damned mind which way he wants to go. What he has to do is get rid of Bloom and then Cora and decide as a big market team that such a scenario screams for a winner and no the turd team we have now. The question for me is has he learned anything from his s tupidity of the past?
Quote from: SeaBeachFred on July 19, 2022, 03:33:40 PM
Right now I'm reading for the second time "HOME GROWN", the Red Sox story of building the next great Boston team, that of our 2018 Champions. What we're seeing now is the total deconstruction of that method of building and perhaps a desperation move to redo what we did between 2016-2018 to finally get us looking like a real ball club instead of a doddering bunch of clowns. Back in our second last place finish in a row in 2015, prune face hired Dave Dombrowski to become head of Baseball Operations and he inherited some good young players drafted that might be ready to roll. However, unlike Ben Cherington who tended to hoard prospects for fear of their going elsewhere and coming back to haunt the Red Sox on some other team. Dan decided we had a chance to win sooner than later and wound up signing lefty David Price as an expensive free agent for the 2016 season and then Chris Sale for he 2017 season. He had to trade away a bunch of prospects that we didn't miss because we already had their replacements in the lineup by 2017----Betts, Bogaerts, Benintendi, Vazquez, Devers,etc. Adding those two pitchers and then signing JD Martinez before the 2018 season told everyone that we would sacrifice down the road in need be to finally get back over the hump. The result 2018?
In 2019 for reasons only he knows, owner John Henry started deconstructing the team by putting Betts up for sale, hired Chaim Bloom, a Cherington type for collecting and hoarding prospects. In 2020 Betts was traded away and Benintendi soon followed. You see the result to today for that way of thinking. Now there are rumblings that the prune wants to win again and is getting tired of seeing his shitshow look like the clowns they are. Henry has done this before; can't seem to make up his damned mind which way he wants to go. What he has to do is get rid of Bloom and then Cora and decide as a big market team that such a scenario screams for a winner and no the turd team we have now. The question for me is has he learned anything from his s tupidity of the past?
Seeing Benny and Betts leave is kind of like watching Haywood Sullivan get rid of Fisk and Lynn about 40 years ago. A couple big differences, sure, but just as painful to see. Still stings, actually. This modern-day version was just as avoidable as it was back then.
Longgame was talking about it on a different thread. A big player leaving the environment they excelled in is bad for all parties, yet they can't even come close to a solution. Imagine if they solved that issue in an equitable manner? Pfffft, cats and dogs living together and A's selling seats kind of odd happenings. They're plenty of people who want that, too. Instead, we'll get what's going to happen over the next two weeks.
Quote from: MongoLikeSox on July 19, 2022, 09:41:49 PM
Quote from: SeaBeachFred on July 19, 2022, 03:33:40 PM
Right now I'm reading for the second time "HOME GROWN", the Red Sox story of building the next great Boston team, that of our 2018 Champions. What we're seeing now is the total deconstruction of that method of building and perhaps a desperation move to redo what we did between 2016-2018 to finally get us looking like a real ball club instead of a doddering bunch of clowns. Back in our second last place finish in a row in 2015, prune face hired Dave Dombrowski to become head of Baseball Operations and he inherited some good young players drafted that might be ready to roll. However, unlike Ben Cherington who tended to hoard prospects for fear of their going elsewhere and coming back to haunt the Red Sox on some other team. Dan decided we had a chance to win sooner than later and wound up signing lefty David Price as an expensive free agent for the 2016 season and then Chris Sale for he 2017 season. He had to trade away a bunch of prospects that we didn't miss because we already had their replacements in the lineup by 2017----Betts, Bogaerts, Benintendi, Vazquez, Devers,etc. Adding those two pitchers and then signing JD Martinez before the 2018 season told everyone that we would sacrifice down the road in need be to finally get back over the hump. The result 2018?
In 2019 for reasons only he knows, owner John Henry started deconstructing the team by putting Betts up for sale, hired Chaim Bloom, a Cherington type for collecting and hoarding prospects. In 2020 Betts was traded away and Benintendi soon followed. You see the result to today for that way of thinking. Now there are rumblings that the prune wants to win again and is getting tired of seeing his shitshow look like the clowns they are. Henry has done this before; can't seem to make up his damned mind which way he wants to go. What he has to do is get rid of Bloom and then Cora and decide as a big market team that such a scenario screams for a winner and no the turd team we have now. The question for me is has he learned anything from his s tupidity of the past?
Seeing Benny and Betts leave is kind of like watching Haywood Sullivan get rid of Fisk and Lynn about 40 years ago. A couple big differences, sure, but just as painful to see. Still stings, actually. This modern-day version was just as avoidable as it was back then.
Longgame was talking about it on a different thread. A big player leaving the environment they excelled in is bad for all parties, yet they can't even come close to a solution. Imagine if they solved that issue in an equitable manner? Pfffft, cats and dogs living together and A's selling seats kind of odd happenings. They're plenty of people who want that, too. Instead, we'll get what's going to happen over the next two weeks.
It's funny you mention Fisk and Lynn because I was thinking of them in this same context. Who have the Sox developed and kept since then? Rice because they were probably afraid of what he'd do if they traded him. Clemens was in the "twilight of his career". Nomar of course had run the course of his usefulness. Lester was traded and had good years after. Not saying they should have kept any of them, but who have the Sox developed and kept? Pedey? It seems like if he stayed healthy they would have traded him at some point. Seems to be a big problem and I never understood the idea about gambling on a free agent when you have someone you know already.
Quote from: longgame on July 20, 2022, 07:47:21 AM
Quote from: MongoLikeSox on July 19, 2022, 09:41:49 PM
Quote from: SeaBeachFred on July 19, 2022, 03:33:40 PM
Right now I'm reading for the second time "HOME GROWN", the Red Sox story of building the next great Boston team, that of our 2018 Champions. What we're seeing now is the total deconstruction of that method of building and perhaps a desperation move to redo what we did between 2016-2018 to finally get us looking like a real ball club instead of a doddering bunch of clowns. Back in our second last place finish in a row in 2015, prune face hired Dave Dombrowski to become head of Baseball Operations and he inherited some good young players drafted that might be ready to roll. However, unlike Ben Cherington who tended to hoard prospects for fear of their going elsewhere and coming back to haunt the Red Sox on some other team. Dan decided we had a chance to win sooner than later and wound up signing lefty David Price as an expensive free agent for the 2016 season and then Chris Sale for he 2017 season. He had to trade away a bunch of prospects that we didn't miss because we already had their replacements in the lineup by 2017----Betts, Bogaerts, Benintendi, Vazquez, Devers,etc. Adding those two pitchers and then signing JD Martinez before the 2018 season told everyone that we would sacrifice down the road in need be to finally get back over the hump. The result 2018?
In 2019 for reasons only he knows, owner John Henry started deconstructing the team by putting Betts up for sale, hired Chaim Bloom, a Cherington type for collecting and hoarding prospects. In 2020 Betts was traded away and Benintendi soon followed. You see the result to today for that way of thinking. Now there are rumblings that the prune wants to win again and is getting tired of seeing his shitshow look like the clowns they are. Henry has done this before; can't seem to make up his damned mind which way he wants to go. What he has to do is get rid of Bloom and then Cora and decide as a big market team that such a scenario screams for a winner and no the turd team we have now. The question for me is has he learned anything from his s tupidity of the past?
Seeing Benny and Betts leave is kind of like watching Haywood Sullivan get rid of Fisk and Lynn about 40 years ago. A couple big differences, sure, but just as painful to see. Still stings, actually. This modern-day version was just as avoidable as it was back then.
Longgame was talking about it on a different thread. A big player leaving the environment they excelled in is bad for all parties, yet they can't even come close to a solution. Imagine if they solved that issue in an equitable manner? Pfffft, cats and dogs living together and A's selling seats kind of odd happenings. They're plenty of people who want that, too. Instead, we'll get what's going to happen over the next two weeks.
It's funny you mention Fisk and Lynn because I was thinking of them in this same context. Who have the Sox developed and kept since then? Rice because they were probably afraid of what he'd do if they traded him. Clemens was in the "twilight of his career". Nomar of course had run the course of his usefulness. Lester was traded and had good years after. Not saying they should have kept any of them, but who have the Sox developed and kept? Pedey? It seems like if he stayed healthy they would have traded him at some point. Seems to be a big problem and I never understood the idea about gambling on a free agent when you have someone you know already.
Funny too from my vantage point such as it is because for a team that has won four titles in this century our front office and owners have had a remarkable ability to make one screw up after another with our players where contracts are concerned and still manage to land on their feet with some inordinate amount of luck. John Henry should start thinking that his luck might just run out if he doesn't start hiring the best coaches he can, especially in developing and shaping pitchers and picks the right prospects to promote to the big club instead of the wrong ones. We don't need any more miserable hitters like Jackie Bradley, miserable pitchers like Matt Barnes and some of the others we have rolled our eyes after watching them perform like bozos for us over the years.
Lester was a front office blunder. They offered him something way too low and it backfired. Letting Dombrowski take Betts to Arbitration spoiled Mookie on any possibility of signing an extension and staying with Boston.
We're lucky Big Papi decided he didn't want to go anywhere with the low-ball contracts he got. They almost dared him to go. Yet they have no problem with more money per year deals with free agent busts galore. Stupid signings. It's so backwards from where it should be.
The Fisk debacle is legendary. He didn't want to go anywhere. They made Haywood make a deal, but he had the secretary famously "forget" to send him the contract by some important date. The rest is history. I don't know why they felt the need to trade Lynn or what the deal was.
I agree on Nomar. I thought the same for Clemens, but Clemens got juiced after he left. I didn't see that coming.
Boggs was another one. He had an agreement already, but Mrs Yawkey passed and management changed. And what they let Burks go for under that management is too disgusting to type.
These ownership blunders are some bad Red Sox DNA. I see Henry after the 20 year period before him and think he's a huge improvement, despite the deficiencies.
There should be some good news for me in the coming days unless I have trouble getting there. In about five hours I will be heading to Cooperstown via Chicago and Albany for the induction of our great champion David Ortiz into the Hall of Fame. It will at least for a few days make me forget where our team is today and how out of sorts our front office and coaching staff, along with our players have been this season. Big Papi brings back mostly great memories of our teams back in his day if we can forget for a moment the end of 2011, the Bobby Valentine disaster of 2012 and Larry Lucchino's low balling of Jon Lester in the Spring of 2014 that tumbled us down from a defending champion to two last place finishes. Then again, I guess those things happened with Papi as well which makes me think the ownership and front office were screwing up then too. At any rate I hope when I get back on the 27th there is some improvement with our team even though I won't be holding my breath for it. Take care guys and keep this board rolling; we have the best baseball people on it and make almost all the others look amateur in comparison.
Have a great trip, Fred! Post a couple of pics, eh? I'm envious. We're sweltering here. A week in the Cooperstown area - primo!
Sounds like fun Fred. Safe travels!
Papelbon agrees: https://www.audacy.com/weei/sports/red-sox/papelbon-shreds-bloom-for-using-rays-approach-with-red-sox?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (https://www.audacy.com/weei/sports/red-sox/papelbon-shreds-bloom-for-using-rays-approach-with-red-sox?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)
Seems like a few major former Sox stars have pointed this out recently.
Bloom is almost worthless. Sox have not had a good 1B in two years. Mets traded for 1B Vogelbach yesterday. HR skill, bats .260 against righties. Bloom did check in on a AAA 1B the Mets were offering AAA Dom Smith as a low grade piece, meh.
What is crazy, Sox have a 40 man roster they can protect, then the rule 5 coming up. They can't protect all the prospects. Get off the schnide and trade a couple, give the fans something to nibble on. The draft is done, get back to work
A blurb out this morning, Fenway Sports Group is distracted by their soccer team, as aways. But this summer they are spending a lot of office time and field work helping part owner LeBron try to get a new NBA franchise awarded in Vegas. You can't make this stuff up.
Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on July 23, 2022, 12:19:39 PM
A blurb out this morning, Fenway Sports Group is distracted by their soccer team, as aways. But this summer they are spending a lot of office time and field work helping part owner LeBron try to get a new NBA franchise awarded in Vegas. You can't make this stuff up.
That's the same Lebron that just called Boston "racist" right? Good prioritization of the fan base there!
Quote from: SeaBeachFred on July 21, 2022, 10:18:12 AM
There should be some good news for me in the coming days unless I have trouble getting there. In about five hours I will be heading to Cooperstown via Chicago and Albany for the induction of our great champion David Ortiz into the Hall of Fame. It will at least for a few days make me forget where our team is today and how out of sorts our front office and coaching staff, along with our players have been this season. Big Papi brings back mostly great memories of our teams back in his day if we can forget for a moment the end of 2011, the Bobby Valentine disaster of 2012 and Larry Lucchino's low balling of Jon Lester in the Spring of 2014 that tumbled us down from a defending champion to two last place finishes. Then again, I guess those things happened with Papi as well which makes me think the ownership and front office were screwing up then too. At any rate I hope when I get back on the 27th there is some improvement with our team even though I won't be holding my breath for it. Take care guys and keep this board rolling; we have the best baseball people on it and make almost all the others look amateur in comparison.
ENJOY!!!
AND Big Papi speaks last.
GREAT ceremony.
Baseball at its best!
True love of the game.
Alex Speier says they tried to pin Bloom down on how he will approach the trade deadline, either buyer or seller. He said,
"We're trying to make the postseason." Actually he could have said the same thing on Jan 1, Apr 1 or Aug 1.
Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on July 26, 2022, 05:40:01 PM
Alex Speier says they tried to pin Bloom down on how he will approach the trade deadline, either buyer or seller. He said,
"We're trying to make the postseason." Actually he could have said the same thing on Jan 1, Apr 1 or Aug 1.
While I did not hear the broadcast, I am told that Lou Merloni did a number on Bloom. He said that Bloom has no sense of urgency. Merloni blasted Duran and Downs as not major league ready. He said that Boston has only 4 major league caliber position players and apparently Verdugo is not one of them.
So, we have the countless bad decisions ranging from all corners of personnel to pitching management to analytics being blind to the actual game on the field. Has the manager and the organization lost this team? Are we in that famous Shane Hillanbrandt mode where the ship is sinking, every man for himself?
Think about it. Time after time, our shift gets beat when the game situation is big. Our mandated high ball pitching has been getting hammered by our own division for years. They know it's coming. It's brushed under the carpet whenever someone brings it up. So you're playing for a team that cuts out your legs by faulty strategy and bad pitching management (when fully staffed) and a Manager that leaves you to the wolves AT THE RISK OF INJURY in the name of saving tomorrow's game.
So all the players have left is each other. Sort of. Not for much longer.
Quote from: MongoLikeSox on July 27, 2022, 07:49:35 AM
So, we have the countless bad decisions ranging from all corners of personnel to pitching management to analytics being blind to the actual game on the field. Has the manager and the organization lost this team? Are we in that famous Shane Hillanbrandt mode where the ship is sinking, every man for himself?
Think about it. Time after time, our shift gets beat when the game situation is big. Our mandated high ball pitching has been getting hammered by our own division for years. They know it's coming. It's brushed under the carpet whenever someone brings it up. So you're playing for a team that cuts out your legs by faulty strategy and bad pitching management (when fully staffed) and a Manager that leaves you to the wolves AT THE RISK OF INJURY in the name of saving tomorrow's game.
So all the players have left is each other. Sort of. Not for much longer.
I think they're in chicken and beer territory, but that team had more talent (which made their collapse more dramatic). This was predictable.
I'm glad you brought up the shift - I'm amazed at how teams (Toronto and TB in particular) manage to constantly hit it away from the defense but we manage to get some hard hit balls at defenders who are standing exactly in the right spot. The bullpen strategy I guess is one of confusion - the opposing manager will never expect that he'll keep running guys like Diekman out there.
All of this - poor team construction and the inability get anything out of their remaining players, while the best players on the team remain in contract limbo - gives a predictable result.
Chicken and beer territory? That's a strong statement. Those were nasty times. Two seasons prior to 2013 and at least 2014. I turned it all off during the 2014 season. Skipped at least 2015.
An interesting comp is the dismantling of that 2012 team. Beckett, Crawford, Pinto, Shoppach(maybe?) and Gonzolas plus cash to the Dodgers. Talk about a house cleaning on one full swoop. That was a lot of bad vibes gone in an instant.
Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on July 23, 2022, 07:20:23 AM
Bloom is almost worthless. Sox have not had a good 1B in two years. Mets traded for 1B Vogelbach yesterday. HR skill, bats .260 against righties. Bloom did check in on a AAA 1B the Mets were offering AAA Dom Smith as a low grade piece, meh.
What is crazy, Sox have a 40 man roster they can protect, then the rule 5 coming up. They can't protect all the prospects. Get off the schnide and trade a couple, give the fans something to nibble on. The draft is done, get back to work
If Bloom is really going to try and trade for Dominic Smith he has to be fired before he makes such a stupid trade. Smith, a first baseman, outfielder, has hit exactly NO home runs this season and was hitting under 200 for the Mets when they literally gave up on him. We have enough garbage on the team right now; we don't need any more. And Sea Dog, you are right, Bloom is worthless but will most likely get another year with the Red Sox to try and improve on his shoddy performance. Besides John Henry is a cheap bastard and doesn't want to spend money anymore and only the Boston Press can force his hand as we all know by now that Prune Face cannot handle criticism well at all. Maybe a verbal barrage from the Fourth Estate will finally get him off his yacht and away from his safe and start doing something to save face from what has become little more than a Shit Show from Boston.
Quote from: MongoLikeSox on July 27, 2022, 10:06:56 AM
Chicken and beer territory? That's a strong statement. Those were nasty times. Two seasons prior to 2013 and at least 2014. I turned it all off during the 2014 season. Skipped at least 2015.
An interesting comp is the dismantling of that 2012 team. Beckett, Crawford, Pinto, Shoppach(maybe?) and Gonzolas plus cash to the Dodgers. Talk about a house cleaning on one full swoop. That was a lot of bad vibes gone in an instant.
Maybe we need to do that after this Shit Show we're seeing now and that should include not only Bloom but Cora the cheater as well. Henry might think of selling the team as well since he seems to have lost interest in his baseball team and instead spending a hell of lot of time and money on his soccer team.
I'm getting fairly sick of their PR machine, too. It's not quite so clever and effective as they think. Next thing they'll try to do is have home team history promotions that will include the scoreboard standings from this date in xxxx so they don't have to show the Sox at the bottom.
Quote from: MongoLikeSox on July 28, 2022, 07:20:30 AM
I'm getting fairly sick of their PR machine, too. It's not quite so clever and effective as they think. Next thing they'll try to do is have home team history promotions that will include the scoreboard standings from this date in xxxx so they don't have to show the Sox at the bottom.
It might work for the pink hats Mongo but it should never work for the fans who live and die with that team. It if does work for the fans, shame on their worthless asses.
Quote from: SeaBeachFred on July 28, 2022, 02:36:50 PM
Quote from: MongoLikeSox on July 28, 2022, 07:20:30 AM
I'm getting fairly sick of their PR machine, too. It's not quite so clever and effective as they think. Next thing they'll try to do is have home team history promotions that will include the scoreboard standings from this date in xxxx so they don't have to show the Sox at the bottom.
It might work for the pink hats Mongo but it should never work for the fans who live and die with that team. It if does work for the fans, shame on their worthless asses.
They better not say bad stuff 'bout Benny tonight. It's not his fault Boston didn't work out, and it's not his fault he's a Yankee.
Bloom screwed up big time yesterday. First of all, the way the trade went down was yet another PR disaster. It just demonstrates once again Bloom Henry & Co. have zero people skills. Secondly whatever morale existed in that clubhouse before the trade vanished afterwards. According to many media reports, the players blame Bloom for not making the deals to improve the team last off season after they almost made the World Series. Many in the clubhouse now believe Henry is not as committed to producing a winning team as he was in the past. This attitude may make it tough for the Sox to keep Devers who wants to play for a winner.
Finally most in the Boston media now believe that Bloom simply doesn't understand the Boston market. He is just another Tampa Bay alum who is failing in Boston. One wag called Blooms approach the definition of insanity. His incremental approach was likened to someone who plays 5 dollar blackjack at the casino expecting to become a billionaire.
After Eovaldi's bravado last night, 0 eared runs I think it was, Bloom would be cold hearted to trade Nathan today, no black- hearted. I think the clubhouse suspects JDM is gone, but losing Nathan today would be the nail in the clubhouse coffin. Also rumors of JBJ moving on, to dump another big salary. Alas the Sox should be under the tax line with those two moves, since that is the new model to run the Boston franchise.
Vaz said he didn't know if Bloom believed in the team which sealed his fate and left Bloom to not worry about it. Of course petty move by Bloom, since he clearly doesn't seem to be believe in this team, but still somewhat understandable.
As for today, who knows what he'll do. All the press I've seen talk about one or two things - he's destroying the core that is left and he seemingly has no plan and is flailing about. I'm always amazed that Cashman, for all his faults, decides to go after a guy and gets him whether it's during the season or in the offseason. There's no pussyfooting around, no cute games, he just goes out and gets the guys he thinks he needs. Like many reporters, I've yet to figure out what the heck Bloom's "plan" is, other than to cut payroll.
Word from some of the lesser White Sox press types was that Reese McGuire was a soon to be DFA'd. Their applauding White Sox Brass for getting something for him and addressing a glaring need. (almost no lefties in the BP, or at least leverage lefties.)
Nice one, Bloom!
Bloom never met a sub .250 hitter he didn't like.
I've been trying to dissect the moves Alex Cora has made this season in combination with the roster he was given and the whole Chaim Bloom thing. Robles and Franchy were given more chances than anyone I've seen. 3 errors, march him back out. 17 K's, march him back out in the 5-hole. Blown a bunch of saves? March him back out to close another. That sort of thing.
My question is, how much of this is Cora being stubborn, and how much of this is Cora being petulant? By that, I mean an attitude like "this what I was given, this is what I'm using. It's not on me." Is this Cora fueling the flames, or is this Cora bought into the kool aide? That little jab after they got into the playoffs last season notwithstanding.
This has been eating at me for months.
(Then you look at the list of pitchers Cora's ruined (or put the finishing touches on) over his short managerial career with his "mastery" of the pitching staff and the young players that get caught in the gears and spit out along the way. All the head shaking. That's a whole different thread.)
This has always been Cora's MO. As Fred rightly says Cora thinks he is the smartest man in the room. He is not.
I think a lot of managers in his position would do the same in terms of you give them to me, I'm going to play them, but on the other hand, what choices did he have? He also gave Dalbec a lot of chances for two years. But with Franchy he's a bit stuck as he doesn't have answers for two positions, made worse when Hernandez went down. Robles though is dumb-founding. But I can relate a little to how Francona used to manage which was from April to August he gave guys every chance to show they could get out of a jam and then around mid-August he managed the back end especially more tightly. Still, the key point to me is the way that pitchers just go to die here. The lack of control and the lack of ability to adjust to what opposing teams are doing have killed them.
Just seems like it's a good time to lock down a couple of key players, and then clean out the front office down to the managers office.
I have said repeatedly over the years that the Red Sox have a fundamentally flawed approach towards all aspects of pitching. The organization has not produced an all star starting pitcher since John Lester.
Quote from: elktonnick on August 02, 2022, 07:08:14 AM
Bloom screwed up big time yesterday. First of all, the way the trade went down was yet another PR disaster. It just demonstrates once again Bloom Henry & Co. have zero people skills. Secondly whatever morale existed in that clubhouse before the trade vanished afterwards. According to many media reports, the players blame Bloom for not making the deals to improve the team last off season after they almost made the World Series. Many in the clubhouse now believe Henry is not as committed to producing a winning team as he was in the past. This attitude may make it tough for the Sox to keep Devers who wants to play for a winner.
Finally most in the Boston media now believe that Bloom simply doesn't understand the Boston market. He is just another Tampa Bay alum who is failing in Boston. One wag called Blooms approach the definition of insanity. His incremental approach was likened to someone who plays 5 dollar blackjack at the casino expecting to become a billionaire.
Agreed Elk but you have to also understand that this is why Prune Face Henry hired him after firing Dan Dombrowski late in the 2019 season. He wanted to cut spending drastically and act more like a middle level franchise instead of one of the big boys. For some reason so many of my colleagues on this board seem very reluctant to pass any of the blame for this shit show to Henry. Lacking true people skills and coupled with piss poor reading of the market, he has to take the biggest hit of all of the bums running this organization because it all starts at the top and he is at the top, the cheap bastard.
Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on August 02, 2022, 07:30:54 AM
After Eovaldi's bravado last night, 0 eared runs I think it was, Bloom would be cold hearted to trade Nathan today, no black- hearted. I think the clubhouse suspects JDM is gone, but losing Nathan today would be the nail in the clubhouse coffin. Also rumors of JBJ moving on, to dump another big salary. Alas the Sox should be under the tax line with those two moves, since that is the new model to run the Boston franchise.
Rumors of Bradley moving on???? You have to be totally drunk and on drugs to believe that. Any such rumor will be shot down from Henry's yacht when he lets Bloom know that his favorite is not to be traded, released, or even benched. You watch. Either Duren, Verdugo or the guy they just got yesterday will be benched to keep Bradley and his putrid bat in the lineup. You watch. I am convinced of that. The only way we will be finally rid of Bradley is for some team to make such an offer of top p rospect or Bradley demanding a trade will be finally rid of this guy.
Quote from: longgame on August 02, 2022, 09:48:13 AM
I think a lot of managers in his position would do the same in terms of you give them to me, I'm going to play them, but on the other hand, what choices did he have? He also gave Dalbec a lot of chances for two years. But with Franchy he's a bit stuck as he doesn't have answers for two positions, made worse when Hernandez went down. Robles though is dumb-founding. But I can relate a little to how Francona used to manage which was from April to August he gave guys every chance to show they could get out of a jam and then around mid-August he managed the back end especially more tightly. Still, the key point to me is the way that pitchers just go to die here. The lack of control and the lack of ability to adjust to what opposing teams are doing have killed them.
Just seems like it's a good time to lock down a couple of key players, and then clean out the front office down to the managers office.
That's the point I've been making for the past month or so. After this season there is no way back to respectability for our team unless the whole front office is cleaned out.....and that includes both Bloom and Cora.
I didn't want to start a new thread for this bit of research. It seems to fit here. I looked up the position players that The Red Sox have acquired in the Bloom era. A mixed bag, for sure, but it's heavily weighted on the negative.
To start with, that kid we got for Christian Vazquez - Emanuel Valdez - is doing what most of the other Chaim Bloom trade acquisitions do best. Watching their own batting averages plummet. Valdez's BA in Worcester is now .194. He looks lost. Did we do that? Maybe Here's the others. He joins Downs (.197), Abreu (.190), Hamilton (.225), Binelas (.202), another Valdez (.192) and Hudson Potts (.214) in the "yikes" department. Do note that Binelas has hit 24 HRs this year and Hamilton SB total is up to 56. Imagine that total if he could get on base?
In all fairness to Bloom, some of his pickups are doing decently. Koss at .278, Wong and Hernandez both in the .270's alternating catching duties in Worcester. Sogard was doing OK earlier in the year, but is still hitting .248.
I think his pitching pickups are a mixed bag as well, but will look another day.
Quote from: MongoLikeSox on August 24, 2022, 08:41:52 AM
I didn't want to start a new thread for this bit of research. It seems to fit here. I looked up the position players that The Red Sox have acquired in the Bloom era. A mixed bag, for sure, but it's heavily weighted on the negative.
To start with, that kid we got for Christian Vazquez - Emanuel Valdez - is doing what most of the other Chaim Bloom trade acquisitions do best. Watching their own batting averages plummet. Valdez's BA in Worcester is now .194. He looks lost. Did we do that? Maybe Here's the others. He joins Downs (.197), Abreu (.190), Hamilton (.225), Binelas (.202), another Valdez (.192) and Hudson Potts (.214) in the "yikes" department. Do note that Binelas has hit 24 HRs this year and Hamilton SB total is up to 56. Imagine that total if he could get on base?
In all fairness to Bloom, some of his pickups are doing decently. Koss at .278, Wong and Hernandez both in the .270's alternating catching duties in Worcester. Sogard was doing OK earlier in the year, but is still hitting .248.
I think his pitching pickups are a mixed bag as well, but will look another day.
On the MLB level, the position players we arrived at after the Beni deal (2021 or 22?) and the Renfroe debacle would be Franchy 1B/OF and Refsnyder RF. Not that Bloom didn't make a half-a$$ effort to fill those slots, but for whatever reason came up short. Suzuki that went to the Cubs is regaining his good hitting tools and baserunning in August, Castellanos went to the Phils and is now a hot bat again closing out the year, Marte is having an all-star year in RF for the Mets. All those players were available as FA's in the Spring, but were easily in the $15-20mil salary bracket. No way Bloom was going to shell out that kind of dinero, when he wouldn't sign Jansen to be the closer (went for $18mil).
I'm beginning to wonder if guys like Suzuki turned down playing in Boston as Kluber did the year before, probably as an after effect to the Mookie debacle PR.
As far as the pitching woes. Masseroti (I had to bear that squeaky voice again) had some good conclusions to the sad state of the pitching. Bloom obviously relied heavily on Sale having a big year with Paxton getting healthy in time to close out the year. Both did not happen, along with Eovaldi's injuries. Then he signed some older pitchers for the back end, that now have to be the frontline pitchers.
They mishandled Whitlock, who was signed and programmed to be long man in the bullpen, then they decided to try him as a starter, which seemed to screw up his mechanics and pitch selections. How to fix the mess in 2023??
For 2023 Masseroti said the #1 FA pitcher available is 37 yo Kershaw, followed by #2 Eovaldi with his history of injury. In the Spring of 2022 it would have been smart to sign some over achievers like Roldan, having a great year at SF or Odorizzi, now doing good with the Braves. Of course they had already cast their lot with Sale as the ace and they were relying on Eovaldi and Pivetta to have great years. The bad decisions and then subsequent injuries have turned bad luck into a total disaster. Face it, the Sox do not have good baseball people in the FO.
One and two are those two injury prone guys? Damn, that's some thin pitching ranks for being a pitching dominating league as it is. (present team excluded, of course.)
I agree with that basic statement about our front office not having good baseball people. Assuming the best jumped ship because Dombrowski wasn't letting them sit at the big kids' table. The Red Sox front office tree includes:
Red Sox - 3 games under 50
Arizona - 10 games under 500
Cubs - 17 games under 500
Pirates - 29 games under 500
I know there's one other somewhere, but I lost it. Oh, Dombrowski. 13 games over 500. LOL
(I still think I'm a team short. Didn't someone get expelled somewhere for bad behavior? Maybe an interim GM somewhere? Now it's driving me nuts.)
Quote from: SeaBeachFred on August 02, 2022, 03:29:28 PM
Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on August 02, 2022, 07:30:54 AM
After Eovaldi's bravado last night, 0 eared runs I think it was, Bloom would be cold hearted to trade Nathan today, no black- hearted. I think the clubhouse suspects JDM is gone, but losing Nathan today would be the nail in the clubhouse coffin. Also rumors of JBJ moving on, to dump another big salary. Alas the Sox should be under the tax line with those two moves, since that is the new model to run the Boston franchise.
Rumors of Bradley moving on???? You have to be totally drunk and on drugs to believe that. Any such rumor will be shot down from Henry's yacht when he lets Bloom know that his favorite is not to be traded, released, or even benched. You watch. Either Duren, Verdugo or the guy they just got yesterday will be benched to keep Bradley and his putrid bat in the lineup. You watch. I am convinced of that. The only way we will be finally rid of Bradley is for some team to make such an offer of top p rospect or Bradley demanding a trade will be finally rid of this guy.
Mea culpa. I was wrong....they did get rid of Bradley and most likely the Jays will at the end of this season, so just be aware that the team could still bring the guy back for a third time. Look how many times we've brought back French Fry after one failure after another. Last night another gem, three official at-bats and three strikeouts. The team needs a housecleaning in the "leadership department and it starts with Blomer boy and that filthy rotten cheater.
Both Sean McAdam and Peter Abraham have recently written about Alex Cora's frustrations.. The latter implied increased tension between Cora and Bloom. There is speculation that there may be a parting .
The possibility arises that Bloom may fire Cora in an effort to buy an additional year. for himself.
On the other hand in light of Henry's history with Cora all but forcing Bloom.to bring him back there is thinking if one goes it will be Bloom with the possibility of Cora being kicked upstairs to a front office job.
Some are saying with Abraham's record of solid front.office sources something is a foot.
It could get interesting assuming John Henry isn't preoccupied with non baseball matters.
Quote from: elktonnick on August 29, 2022, 06:36:33 PM
Both Sean McAdam and Peter Abraham have recently written about Alex Cora's frustrations.. The latter implied increased tension between Cora and Bloom. There is speculation that there may be a parting .
The possibility arises that Bloom may fire Cora in an effort to buy an additional year. for himself.
On the other hand in light of Henry's history with Cora all but forcing Bloom.to bring him back there is thinking if one goes it will be Bloom with the possibility of Cora being kicked upstairs to a front office job.
Some are saying with Abraham's record of solid front.office sources something is a foot.
It could get interesting assuming John Henry isn't preoccupied with non baseball matters.
Sam Kennedy said tonight he is “comfortable saying Bloom and Cora will return for 2023.†From what elk posted, Kennedy did not elaborate what and where they would return to.
Me thinks Kennedy had to say something after both McAdam and Abraham raised the issue. That also did not sound like a ringing endorsement, although I wonder how much input Kennedy has in the decision.
In Aug of 2012, Ben Cherrington said manager Bobby Valentine had ownerships full support.
They took time in last night's broadcast to bring up what Kennedy told the Athletic. This is the main quote from the article written by Ken Rothensal. It goes on to utter the stuff they think we want to hear, like how we'll continue to invest at all levels, yearly goal of playing in October, etc.
"
“I am very comfortable saying Chaim and Alex will be back. And I am very comfortable saying there is a strong belief in the direction of the franchise from our ownership group,†Kennedy said Monday. “That direction is continuing to build for the future, but also continuing to invest at the major-league level.â€
"
In the end, the only specifics on missteps in the article was a couple captain obvious moves like JBJ/Renfroe and young player development that Ken labeled as having regressed. It was a VERY light hitting PR piece, but at least by someone other than the two that normally massage the issues for the Sox. I think we're very tired of seeing that sort of generic fodder. I'd like to see some serious problems addressed with solutions towards fixing the fundamental issues behind the problems. They say they are owning the criticism and bad year, but they are not owning any specific other than to say something like it didn't work the way we wanted it to, or thought it would. Etc.
I certainly agree. Bringing high quality FA pitchers seems to work in the short run. But there is something fundamentally wrong with the way pitchers are handled once they get here. Every team has injuries but the Sox seem to have more than most. If it were my team I would want to know why..
Quote from: elktonnick on August 30, 2022, 07:10:33 AM
I certainly agree. Bringing high quality FA pitchers seems to work in the short run. But there is something fundamentally wrong with the way pitchers are handled once they get here. Every team has injuries but the Sox seem to have more than most. If it were my team I would want to know why..
Isn't that par for the course with Tampa, too? Seems like everyone that comes through that system is toast before they can ever reach FA. Some of the better ones are shadows of themselves by the time they're 28 years old. Kasmir, Snell and Archer (who we'll see tonight) to name a few. Glasnow's out since last year, IIRC. Price was OK long enough to soak Dombrowski for $225M. What was left of him went into the dirt after 2018 WS. For the most part, there was always something wrong with him for most of his time here.
(Price's 1st and 3rd years were 35 and 32 starts, so not as bad as I recalled. ERA up a little, though.)
For some strange reason Henry is enamored of everything Tampa Bay. Except for a short time with Price everyone they brought in from Tampa has not worked out, Julio Lugo, Carl Crawford, Price and now Bloom.
Quote from: elktonnick on August 30, 2022, 08:03:43 AM
For some strange reason Henry is enamored of everything Tampa Bay. Except for a short time with Price everyone they brought in from Tampa has not worked out, Julio Lugo, Carl Crawford, Price and now Bloom.
Good points. Something just doesn't translate. I'm thinking the pressure, playing in front of more than 5000 people every night, a rabid press, and high expectations. Most of these guys are happy to show up and collect a paycheck.
It's just so clear to me and I think to everyone else here that there are fundamental problems with this organization. I think the messaging is Dombrowski screwed it up and Bloom is here to fix it, but that doesn't appear to be working, or at least I'm not buying it. Henry's actions have shown he has little interest in the success (versus the value) of his club. I think the problem is that love him or hate him, Lucchino was a baseball guy who knew how to run all aspects of a ball club and showed it. They haven't had that organizational leadership in a long time.
Rumor has it that Larry Lucchino is involved in a group trying to buy the Washington Nationals.
Quote from: MongoLikeSox on August 30, 2022, 06:26:42 AM
They took time in last night's broadcast to bring up what Kennedy told the Athletic. This is the main quote from the article written by Ken Rothensal. It goes on to utter the stuff they think we want to hear, like how we'll continue to invest at all levels, yearly goal of playing in October, etc.
"
“I am very comfortable saying Chaim and Alex will be back. And I am very comfortable saying there is a strong belief in the direction of the franchise from our ownership group,†Kennedy said Monday. “That direction is continuing to build for the future, but also continuing to invest at the major-league level.â€
"
In the end, the only specifics on missteps in the article was a couple captain obvious moves like JBJ/Renfroe and young player development that Ken labeled as having regressed. It was a VERY light hitting PR piece, but at least by someone other than the two that normally massage the issues for the Sox. I think we're very tired of seeing that sort of generic fodder. I'd like to see some serious problems addressed with solutions towards fixing the fundamental issues behind the problems. They say they are owning the criticism and bad year, but they are not owning any specific other than to say something like it didn't work the way we wanted it to, or thought it would. Etc.
God missive as always Mongo but shame on you for failing to mention that when Kennedy muttered that nonsense who was holding the strings to keep him aloft. It was a money move pure and simple and it reminded me of what someone here told me weeks ago.......namely that Prune Face Henry likes yes men and is leery of people roiling against his wishes. Kennedy fits that bill perfectly while Bloom and Cora are just miserable incompetents who need no strings because they are mentally screwed up as their ineptitude have demonstrated all year.
Quote from: MongoLikeSox on August 30, 2022, 07:37:39 AM
Quote from: elktonnick on August 30, 2022, 07:10:33 AM
I certainly agree. Bringing high quality FA pitchers seems to work in the short run. But there is something fundamentally wrong with the way pitchers are handled once they get here. Every team has injuries but the Sox seem to have more than most. If it were my team I would want to know why..
Isn't that par for the course with Tampa, too? Seems like everyone that comes through that system is toast before they can ever reach FA. Some of the better ones are shadows of themselves by the time they're 28 years old. Kasmir, Snell and Archer (who we'll see tonight) to name a few. Glasnow's out since last year, IIRC. Price was OK long enough to soak Dombrowski for $225M. What was left of him went into the dirt after 2018 WS. For the most part, there was always something wrong with him for most of his time here.
(Price's 1st and 3rd years were 35 and 32 starts, so not as bad as I recalled. ERA up a little, though.)
You are right Mongo but I have to defend Price with all my energy. The guy won we over in 2018 as a leader in the clubhouse and a clutch man in the Playoffs. After another hiccup against the Yankees in the ALDS he blew away the Astros in the ALCS and creamed the Dodgers twice to give us the title. Yes, his price was staggering and he may not have gotten all that we could from it, but from where I sit what we got was enough to put David into my pantheon of favorite Red Sox players. He gave us what we needed.
John Tomase / Yahoo doesn’t think the Sox can see daylight until maybe 2024. The road ahead for baby Bloom
“Forget about building a championship roster -- the Red Sox will need to extend themselves just to field a representative team. As things stand now, only four offensive starters remain under contract for next season: second baseman Trevor Story, third baseman Rafael Devers, left fielder Alex Verdugo, and catcher Reese McGuire, who's technically a career backup. If you want to throw in veteran first baseman Eric Hosmer, that's five, but he's a candidate to be moved, especially with the Padres basically paying the remainder of his salary.
“The pitching staff is equally ill-defined. The only guaranteed starters are Chris Sale (gulp), Nick Pivetta, and Brayan Bello. The only surefire relievers are Matt Barnes (again, gulp) and John Schreiber, with Tanner Houck and Garrett Whitlock factoring into one unit or the other. There will probably be a home for Kutter Crawford, too.
“That means the Red Sox will enter the offseason potentially in the market for a first baseman, middle infielder, two outfielders, and a DH. They'll need at least two starters no matter what they do with Houck and Whitlock, and potentially as many as five relievers.â€
“That is, quite frankly, insane. No one wants to build an entire roster in one winter, even a team like the Red Sox that projects to have about $140 million to spend under the $233 million luxury tax threshold. That's an exercise in futility, because the odds of hitting on that many players are low.
“And yet, in an interview with The Athletic, Red Sox CEO Sam Kennedy said he believes the turnaround could be swift.
“Kennedy insists Cora and Bloom will be back with Red Sox in 2023
"To be looking up at the American League East at this point of the year is painful and frustrating," he said. "And frankly we deserve the criticism we're getting. We've got to own that. It's on us. But we've been around here a long time and we're prepared to turn things around quickly here as we head into '23."
“That's easier said than done, especially in a division with the Orioles already pushing for a playoff spot despite barely dipping into baseball's best farm system. Catcher Adley Rutschman is only the start of Baltimore's talent wave. And we're not even mentioning the Yankees, Rays, and Blue Jays, who'd all be playoff-bound if the season ended today.
“The Red Sox, meanwhile, may be able to fill first base with prospect Triston Casas. They can surely find a home for the oft-injured Christian Arroyo, a tantalizing offensive talent who has yet to prove he can play every day. Maybe they find a way to re-sign shortstop Xander Bogaerts if his market doesn't materialize elsewhere.â€
I agree with Tomase. The team is in big hole
I.can not see Bloom having the capability to get them out of the mess they are in, since it is largely one of his own making.
One also has to question whether Cora is up to the job as well. Cora seems confused by the sloppy play which has marked this team all year. He acts like a disinterested observer who has no role in either causing or resolving the situation.
I just do not see both Bloom or Cora being.around a year from now. One or the other or both will either quit or be fired before 24 spring training.
It's a tall task. Bloom's way out of character to be the one to fill that many spots. He's obsessed with value to the point where he takes big chances to get that value. It's more important than team chemistry, and he'll risk major deficiencies to snag a plus skill within the same player.
Give Bloom $50M to go get 5 relievers and he'll come back with 2 starters coming off three down years each, a closer down 4MPH, one guy recovering from TJ and two 3rd baseman.
And the all around player? Please. Not going to happen. Guys, look at the Trevor Story signing. He did not want to come here. We got him because his agents dragged ass, partially because of the Freddie Freeman debacle that was ongoing(same agents). Teams that WERE interested switched gears and looked elsewhere. We were the last suitors. That drove the price down and the perceived value up and poof, our big free agent signing happened. Turned out to be a great 2nd baseman, but big K numbers, low batting averages and streaky hitting were the deficiencies that came with chasing the last big name standing. Ended up being a very good defender, though. :)
Quote from: SeaBeachFred on August 30, 2022, 04:07:02 PM
Quote from: MongoLikeSox on August 30, 2022, 07:37:39 AM
Quote from: elktonnick on August 30, 2022, 07:10:33 AM
I certainly agree. Bringing high quality FA pitchers seems to work in the short run. But there is something fundamentally wrong with the way pitchers are handled once they get here. Every team has injuries but the Sox seem to have more than most. If it were my team I would want to know why..
Isn't that par for the course with Tampa, too? Seems like everyone that comes through that system is toast before they can ever reach FA. Some of the better ones are shadows of themselves by the time they're 28 years old. Kasmir, Snell and Archer (who we'll see tonight) to name a few. Glasnow's out since last year, IIRC. Price was OK long enough to soak Dombrowski for $225M. What was left of him went into the dirt after 2018 WS. For the most part, there was always something wrong with him for most of his time here.
(Price's 1st and 3rd years were 35 and 32 starts, so not as bad as I recalled. ERA up a little, though.)
You are right Mongo but I have to defend Price with all my energy. The guy won we over in 2018 as a leader in the clubhouse and a clutch man in the Playoffs. After another hiccup against the Yankees in the ALDS he blew away the Astros in the ALCS and creamed the Dodgers twice to give us the title. Yes, his price was staggering and he may not have gotten all that we could from it, but from where I sit what we got was enough to put David into my pantheon of favorite Red Sox players. He gave us what we needed.
We are polar opposites on Price. Sure, he was a leader, but I've always thought of him as a "ring-leader", as in trouble maker type. I didn't even like Pedey for a while because of Price. Just too much nonsense. But that's just me. He finally turned in a great post season in 2018. I'll probably always believe he did so knowing he might be hurting his future. It's a great thing when the teams' path and a star's legacy become intertwined. The other behind the scene things I can live without.
Quote from: MongoLikeSox on August 31, 2022, 08:02:04 AM
It's a tall task. Bloom's way out of character to be the one to fill that many spots. He's obsessed with value to the point where he takes big chances to get that value. It's more important than team chemistry, and he'll risk major deficiencies to snag a plus skill within the same player.
Give Bloom $50M to go get 5 relievers and he'll come back with 2 starters coming off three down years each, a closer down 4MPH, one guy recovering from TJ and two 3rd baseman.
And the all around player? Please. Not going to happen. Guys, look at the Trevor Story signing. He did not want to come here. We got him because his agents dragged ass, partially because of the Freddie Freeman debacle that was ongoing(same agents). Teams that WERE interested switched gears and looked elsewhere. We were the last suitors. That drove the price down and the perceived value up and poof, our big free agent signing happened. Turned out to be a great 2nd baseman, but big K numbers, low batting averages and streaky hitting were the deficiencies that came with chasing the last big name standing. Ended up being a very good defender, though. :)
You make an interesting point about Bloom
One I totally agree with, He'd rather buy two Swiss Army Knives than one good Bowie knife.
I'm with Mongo on Price. He had some moments, but without the dominance of Sale and then we had to pay him to pitch somewhere else he was a bust.
As for next year, if they think this group is capable of turning this core around with so many fundamental flaws in the organization, we're in trouble. Just the thought that Bello is one of our "solid" starters is frightening. We signed Paxton for one year and got exactly nothing to show for it. Nice signing there Bloom. I wonder who next year's bench riders we'll have to keep Sale comfortable as he breaks his arm because a butterfly landed on it. An entire bullpen doesn't scare me as much since it's always a crapshoot, but they'll need to spend money on a closer. As Tomase mentioned, they need to figure out Houck's and Whitlock's roles and they have to do that now. Let them stretch out over the winter if that's the plan.
On the field I'm really torn about Bogaerts. He's a low key leader but a leader nonetheless. I'm disappointed that we find out that he's been playing hurt for some time once again. But they could do a lot worse at SS at at time when they have a lot of other positions to fill. They need to make a decision there also sooner rather than later so they're not tied up dealing with that when they need to build an outfield. I'd be happy if that whole group was gone.
One more thing, a bit unrelated. O'Brien goes off incessantly about how the Sox lead the league in doubles. Normally that's a good thing but it's clearly an indication of their power outage this year. It's great to have a lot of doubles - if you have a lot of homers to go with them. But the Sox don't hit homers anymore even though they're in a hitters' park. Go figure.
Let's look back to November 1st, 2021. Still stinging, but excited. We came close and had enough money to make up the difference. The 1B market did stink to high hell if you look beyond Freddy Freeman and the one that replaced him. That aside, we had a hugely improved CF in Kike, Verdugo had a decent 1st full season in Left and an entertaining, but clumsy RF;er who learned how to hit some. Devers, Bogey, Arroyo and Dalbec in the infield and a good Catching tandem. We needed arms.
Enter Bloom. He took a massive gamble on JBJ, thinking he would regain 2020 form coming back to Boston. For that, he would gain lots of defense. It would cost us 10 HRs, and 25 RBI's and that's IF THE PLAN WORKED. Can he make up for 25 runs? Maybe not. Could he make up for 25 runs minus the runs that Renfroe was costing us by not making plays regardless of official score keeping. You know, maybe. That could have happened.
So then he looks around the infield and sees Arroyo as getting PT as a sub and playing RF because any infielder can play RF in Fenway. Pffft, I mean, who can't? That could help make up for some tuns against tough lefties and cover up JBJ's short comings. Only now we need a 2B. So we go get a SS a couple weeks into ST. He has to make a transition to 2B, and he's got weaknesses of his own with K-rates and not the best batting average. Swing built for Fenway, though. Nothing's perfect. In theory, we gain 10-15 HRs, 25RBI's with Story over Arroyo and still get some out of Arroyo as primary backup.
So, we pay JBJ's $10M and Story's $20M. We do get off the hook for Renfroe's $7.6M. We're down $23M. What have we gained over the 2021 season IF everything worked out? Better RF defense when JBJ's in there, and we don't have to risk losing so much due to Arroyo's injury history.
Am I missing something here? Wouldn't it have just been easier to stick with what we had and used that money for a need?
Mongo, I think another gamble Bloom took in the 21 offseason was expecting all those 21 players to repeat career years performance for all of them in 22.
Then he subtracted Renfroe and Schwarber, and thought Franchy could be coached up. WRONG. Then all the front line SPs got hurt throughout the year. But they were long in the tooth, which he should have factored in anyways. And extended Barnes instead of getting a solid pitcher at the trade deadline.
And those moves and the resulting performances have brought us to where we are today as a fan base. Legitimately questioning whether Bloom has a clue or not. So far it doesn't look good. But if the Sox are committed to him, they all better hope he knocks it out of the park this offseason. I wouldn't bet on that because now the task is pretty big and he hasn't shown that he understand the game or how to evaluate talent. The problem is that we as fans will have to live with his moves for a few years.
Bloom is a plodder. The holes are so many and his approach is so slow. I can not see him moving with any alacrity to accomplish half of what needs to be done.
His first task is to come to terms with Bogaerts. Will Bogaerts agents be willing to close a deal soon rather than later. If the talks are drawn out will Bloom be prepared to move on? I think timing is going to be a huge issue. I just do not see Bloom as decisive enough to move quickly. I expect a long painful off season. The Bogaerts deal will give us all an early indication of how the off season will play itself out. I am not optimistic.