Bosox Board

I know the same questions happen every year. Will our FA signings work out? Were we correct in letting the ones walk that we let walk? Did the trades work out? Will the injured and under-performers rebound? Can certain guys continue to pitch well? 

I'm having trouble recalling a Red Sox off-season that has had so many moves and non-moves come into question. It's a massive organizational overhaui.  I'm looking at 39-ish pitchers to keep an eye on this year. Will this expose the Red Sox system as being entirely inept? Can we judge pitching talent? Did we trade, sign, release and otherwise spend wisely?

Well, I sometimes write when I deal with these extended Migraines like I'm having this morning. I usually delete what I write, but this felt to compelling to post. Should make for an interesting sub-plot to the upcoming season.

• Jake Diekman: Traded to the White Sox for their about to be DFA'd 3rd catcher. One of two OK lefties for us, but lost the strike zone and was worse when it mattered most. Still, it was a hit to our bull pen to lose him, making our biggest need even worse. Will the White Sox teach him to finally throw strikes? TBD, but not much to watch here. The damage has already been done for both teams.
• Taylor Broadway: The PTBNL part of the Diekman/McGuire trade. He did very well in 5 AA appearances (1.50 ERA) at the end of last season.
• Jay Groome: Traded to the Padres as part of one of the stranger trades and subsequent DFA's you'll ever see. Will Groome flourish in SD and finally fullfill the hype, or will he prove the Red Sox correct in giving up in him.
• Austin Davis: I never liked this trade to begin with, but he proved me wrong for a while. Cora turned him into a spent force and shipped him out on the DFA train. No idea if/where he's latched on yet. Houston might have invited him to ST.
• Sawamura: Good luck time clock! If I was him, I'd high-tail it back to Japan. To me, this was a good signing. BUT, the Red Sox are all OCD on high strike zone pitching. Not a good fit for a nasty low-ball pitcher. No idea where he went.
• Jake Reed: The Sox signed this 30 year old AAAA guy with an MLB ERA over 7.00 last year. The DFA'd Bazardo to make room for him. Reed was DFA'd by the end of November where the Dodgers claimed him. He's already cleared waivers again, but stuck with the Dodgers and is starting the year in AAA.
• Eduard Bazardo: To make room for Jake Reed, the team with the worst ERA DFA'd a kid who did OK (2.76ERA) in 19 IP for the big team. Not enough strikeouts or not enough of an out pitch? He'll get his chances in Baltimore at some point. Is there a job for an OK, maybe a below average, but not horrible reliever in MLB? I've said "yes" for two years now.
• Inmer Lobo: How the press is not in on this massive early off-season cluster-f*** of a Bloom depth piece trade is beyond me. We traded this young pitcher with 5 decent starts in the DSL for a HR/K guy(Hoy Park) that we only to DFA in November. WTH??? You'll see him in rookie ball starting in June for the Pirates.
• Connor Seabold: Can the Rockies ease his MLB woes and turn him into the control pitcher he needs to be?
• Noah Song: Maybe we get him back. Maybe he wins 150 games and a couple of Cy Youngs for the Phillies over the next 10 seasons.
• Thad Ward: This one might not have been the most MLB ready prize, but the Nationals thought his upside was worth it.
• Andrew Politi: Losing him on Rule 5 day was a little bit of a surprise and hurt less than the other two, but he might be as ready as any of the Red Sox rule-5 losses. The Orioles will let us know soon enough.
• Brandon Walter: One of the great AA starters that the Red Sox protected. Rough go of it later in the year in AAA.
• Chris Murphy: One of the great AA starters that the Red Sox protected. Rough go of it later in the year in AAA.
• Matt Strahm: Free Agent that left the Sos for the Phillies.
• Joely Rodriguez: Some of the reports are listing him has an improvement for the Red Sox BP. His 2022 Mets' season suggest otherwise. Which will it be? Idealistically, we "traded" Strahm's spot for Joely's spot.
• Michael Wacha: Free Agent signed with the Padres to a creative contract. Which version will they get?
• Rich Hill: He landed just where he should have. On a last place team needing some sort of MLB pitching help. Oh shoot! That's where he was last season.
• Nathan Eovaldi: Left for the Rangers. Is his arm dead or did the Sox make a judgement error?
• Josh Taylor: Traded for their oft injured 5 tool IL disapointment. Will Taylor rebound from his bad back IL lost year or will the Sox have gotten this one right?
• Matt Barnes: Will he continue his up and down ways for the Marlins? It will take two seasons to answer that one.
• Richard Bleier: Our return prize for trading Matt Barnes as part of the whole "let's throw strikes" paradigm shift the Red Sox have undertaken.
• Franklin German. One year. That's what it takes to turn one of very few feathers in Chaim Bloom cap into dumpster fodder. Why? Because he got caught up in the whole strike throwing revolution on top of the 40-man roster woes. Will the White Sox teach him to throw stikes and gain one hell of an arm in the process?
• Theo Denlinger: Our prize for Frankin German. Weill he even make it to the bigs someday? For now we'll just have to watch him on MiLB TV in Portland. In some sort of fairness, he's a non-40 man spot for a guy that needed 40-man protection. Not a straight up trade.
• Wyatt Mills: Should fit right it. 4.60 ERA in half a season in KC last year. Another roster spot for mediocre depth, or are we gifted? Time will tell.
• Zach Kelly: One of the ones that we will ultimately wonder if protecting him came a too great a cost.
• Caleb Ort: Another of the ones that we will ultimately wonder if protecting him came a too great a cost.
• Bryan Mata: A cross between wondering if protecting ends up working out, and wondering what he will eventually bring to the big club in 2023.
• Kenly Jansen: Will he find at least one more Summer in the Sun or is he done? Hope it works.
• Chris Martin: I think the Sox are universally applauded for this signing. Hope it works.
• Ryan Brasier: Did he really fix something that magical late in the season that he was the one we kept?
• John Schreiber: Was his late season demise a tired thing(see Alex Cora and overuse) or did he fall out of his tree?
• Corey Kluber: He found the fountain of middle-age last year. I hope it works.
• Josh Winckowski: We've not seen the last of him. He needs to be much more consistent at the MLB level with keeping his pitches down and getting them called strikes. He does that and he'll be OK. That's a big if.
• Brayan Bello: The next Boston pitching stud? I hope it works out.
• Kutter Crawford: To me, he's the most promising of the non Brayan Bello up and comers division. He throws hard and added as nasty hard slider/curve piece in one trip down to AAA. Came back and had some great outings.   
• Tanner Houck: Will he finally get his consistent chance at starting? This indecision about him has hurt the Sox almoist as much as the failure to get a shot hurt the Sox in Toronto last season. Twice.
• Garrett Whitlock: The darling Bloom coup. Can and will he hold up to starting pitching? As with Houck, they need to make a decision and stick with it.
• Jake Pivetta: Out iron man. Can he get maybe be just a bit more consistent? 
• James Paxton: Obvious injury investment. His existence on our 40-man cost us someone this off season. I hope he was worth it.
• Chris Sale: What's left to say?

So the closest thing to a sure thing(Pivetta) might not even make it back to the Red Sox in time to ramp up the the trip north due to COVID.

Anyhow, I'll be curious to see the fails and successes of our brain trust this season. Which moves work out and which moves will not. Nobody will ever be perfect, but let's hope Bloom is right on more than he's wrong with.

Quite a writeup - I hope it helped you work through your migraine.  Had to laugh at "fountain of middle age" plus a few other good ones in there.   The Sox let a lot of question marks go and acquired a new set and then some.  Let's hope the one that got are all upside and the other ones, not so much. 

At least there is live baseball tomorrow!

It certainly did. I worked on my song list all afternoon. Much better today.

A note about the starters' renewed importance. I looked around the AL. only 28 guys made 28 or more starts. We had 1 pitcher make 28 or more starts. We were joined by Baltimore, LA, MN and Oakland. Detroit and KC had none. Chicago and Texas had 2. Cleveland, Seattle, Tampa, Toronto and the Yankees all had 3. Houston had 4. (Playoff teams in bold)

Isn't it interesting. The concept of the strong starting pitchers construct was supposed to be largely de-emphasized, of not left for dead. But here we are now, and it means as much as it ever did. All of the teams with 3 or more 28+ starters made it to the playoffs. All of the teams with 2 or fewer starters failed to make the playoffs. 

I looked back at 1983 (4 pitchers and 78 wins), 1993 (4 pitchers and 80 wins), 2003(4 starters and 95 wins), 2012(3 starters, 69 wins) and 2013(3 starters and 97 wins). Just a small 5 season sampling designed to see if it matter so much in previous years. Obviously a great teams and the actual quality of the starters meant differences.

Even 2021 saw numbers all over the place as Tampa(0) and Oakland(3) were at opposite ends of the spectrum, perhaps helping to further fuel the devaluation of the starter.  2022 happened, though, and with it came renewed importance of the Starting pitchers.

Part of the problem though, especially in the Sox' case, is that these "starters" go 4 or 5 innings and then go to the "front" of the bullpen which stinks on most teams.  The Sox have a durability problem in two ways - games started and innings per game. 

Good news is there is live baseball today!

Rays at Jet Blue today.  1:05 PM

Winckowski vs Rays Taj Bradley
in the field
Devers 3B
Hernandez SS
Nicko Goodrum 2B
Casas 1B
Connor Wong C
Yoshida LF
Duvall CF
Verdugo RF
Turner DH

Sox get on the board in the 2nd.  Yoshida with a double to right center.
Verdugo singles him home, but thrown out at 2nd trying to stretch it.
Kike, flys out, then Duvall strikes out.  1-0.

Chris Murphy in to pitch the 3rd.

In the 6th with the bases juiced, Matthew Lugo raps a 2-out double to plate 3 runs.  On to the 7th 4-1.

Jacob Webb gives up a grand slam bomb in the 8th.  Rays now up 6-4.

In the Sox 8th Matthew Lugo continues his good hitting with a triple driving in two more runs.  He now has 5 rbi's for the day, and on top of that he is manning SS today.  Tied 6-6 in the 9th.
Lugo is the nephew of Carlos Beltran.  Career wise his hitting outshines his glove work.

After the early innings, Cora has used the NRI, invitees pitchers to display their talents.  The NRIs have been struggling against the opposition this weekend as you would sometimes expect.

Rays pitcher walks first two batters.  Fitzgerald, last spring's surprise, singles for the walk-off win.  7-6.

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on February 26, 2023, 02:52:41 PM
Rays pitcher walks first two batters.  Fitzgerald, last spring's surprise, singles for the walk-off win.  7-6.

We blew one yesterday afternoon in the ninth and came back and won one on a WO hit in the final inning.  What this means?   Hell is I know.

I think Fitzgerald would have had to hit .550 last spring to have any chance of busting through that political brick wall in front of him. Not much chance this year, either as Bloom has trade fodder to parade out. I don't recall who got some sort of promotion, but Fitzgerald's offensive stats went to crap after getting passed over mid-late May. For a while, though, him and Duran were pure energy atop that batting order in Worcester.

Lugo's been on the radar for a while now. He's going to make things very interesting if he has a good year in Portland. I've only seen a little bit of him, but am looking forward to seeing more.

How did Guerrero look? Drafted 17th round made 3 levels in the Sox system ending in greenville. 59K's in 39IP.

Some late Spring Training surfing to check up on some ex-Sox. Mostly farmhands that we lost to Rule 5 and some DFA'd as fallout from our beloved team's master plan.

Thad Ward has impressed big-time. 9 games, 8.2IP, 4ER and 12Ks. I'm not sure which Rule 5 loss I'm most PO'd about, but this is the one that is going to make the Sox look like morons sooner than later. Oh, those 4 ER's were in one game a couple of weeks ago. He's been on fire other than that one outing. This one is going to sting for a long time.
Andrew Politi looks like a lock for the Orioles. Rule-5 had one horrendous outing two weeks ago. Scoreless in his other 7 games. Can't protect them all? I won't say Caleb Ort out loud tight now. I won't way a lot of names right now.
Jay Groome walked 10 in 14 innings so far for the Padres. WHIP at 1.50 and an ERA of 1.29, though, so good for him. Last I read, he's close enough on their depth chart to get called up for a start when needed.
Bazardo is surprising nobody but the Red Sox with a decent Spring so far for Baltimore. I'm rooting for this kid. The Sox never, ever believed in him.
Darwinson has already been DFA'd by the Orioles in January, but did invite him for ST. His 1.1IP over 2 games were a disaster.
Connor Seabold has pitched in 5 games this Spring, all in relief. One of those outings he was torched for 4 runs in 1/3 IP by the Padres. The other 4 outings were fine.  7IP, 5H, 1BB, 7Ks and 1 run.
Franklin German WAS having a good Spring until giving up his first 4 runs in a game 4 days ago. Kind of curious to see if he'll bounce back, or if the previous scoreless stretch was all against AA hitters.
Noah Song is a whole other conversation to have.

It's way too early to declare much of anything yet. We'll see what's happening in June. It will be interesting to see who makes their new teams, though.

Quote from: MongoLikeSox on March 24, 2023, 07:35:52 AM
Some late Spring Training surfing to check up on some ex-Sox. Mostly farmhands that we lost to Rule 5 and some DFA'd as fallout from our beloved team's master plan.

Thad Ward has impressed big-time. 9 games, 8.2IP, 4ER and 12Ks. I'm not sure which Rule 5 loss I'm most PO'd about, but this is the one that is going to make the Sox look like morons sooner than later. Oh, those 4 ER's were in one game a couple of weeks ago. He's been on fire other than that one outing. This one is going to sting for a long time.
Andrew Politi looks like a lock for the Orioles. Rule-5 had one horrendous outing two weeks ago. Scoreless in his other 7 games. Can't protect them all? I won't say Caleb Ort out loud tight now. I won't way a lot of names right now.
Jay Groome walked 10 in 14 innings so far for the Padres. WHIP at 1.50 and an ERA of 1.29, though, so good for him. Last I read, he's close enough on their depth chart to get called up for a start when needed.
Bazardo is surprising nobody but the Red Sox with a decent Spring so far for Baltimore. I'm rooting for this kid. The Sox never, ever believed in him.
Darwinson has already been DFA'd by the Orioles in January, but did invite him for ST. His 1.1IP over 2 games were a disaster.
Connor Seabold has pitched in 5 games this Spring, all in relief. One of those outings he was torched for 4 runs in 1/3 IP by the Padres. The other 4 outings were fine.  7IP, 5H, 1BB, 7Ks and 1 run.
Franklin German WAS having a good Spring until giving up his first 4 runs in a game 4 days ago. Kind of curious to see if he'll bounce back, or if the previous scoreless stretch was all against AA hitters.
Noah Song is a whole other conversation to have.

It's way too early to declare much of anything yet. We'll see what's happening in June. It will be interesting to see who makes their new teams, though.

Yet with all that manuevering, we still have Ort and Brasier.  SMH.  sigh

The Noah Song situation could get interesting. I have my doubts about how much the Red Sox brass will push back on the Phillies, though. That's probably just a general lack of confidence in these guys.

For reference, this is the basic set of rules about the Rule 5 pick that the Phillies have to abide by. I copied this from the MLB site and made a simple bulleted list. The "receiving team" is obviously the Phillies. I'm sure this is just a loosely written summation. MLB-dot-com writers have been known to screw things up when it comes to rules. One writer for the Phillies wrote that the waiver system takes place before the offering of a player back to the original team step. Nope.

• The receiving team must then keep the player on the Major League 25-man roster for the entirety of the next season, and
  The selected player must remain active (not on the disabled list) for a minimum of 90 days.
  If the player does not remain on the Major League roster, he is offered back to the team from which he was selected for $25,000.
  If his original team declines, the receiving team may waive the player.

So, Song developed back tightness about 3 Bullpen sessions into Spring Training and was shut down. I do not know if he's been throwing at all. The general theme I read from the Phillies' world is that he'll have to start the year on the 15-day IL. He would still cost a 40-man roster spot unless the Phillies could convince MLB that a 60-day stint is warranted. Regardless of which for of IL he ends up on, he still has to get 90 days of active MLB roster time in. That's uninjured, 1 of 26 players MLB roster time.

The other consideration is that there is a maximum of 30-days that a player can spend on a rehab assignment. Should Song be stashed away for a month while he works out with 18 years olds at their FCL complex in Clearwater, he could come up to speed and then get a 30-day ramp up for the MLB world. Basically, it buys the Phillies a bunch of time.

Remember back when Whitlock came over from the Yankees that we had to have him on the Roster? It doesn't make sense that we would not have been able to stash him on an IL and 30-day rehab to the Majors. Was this an option? Does it need to be OK'd by MLB?

My hopes are that the Red Sox are pushing MLB to not let the Phillies get away with a whole bunch of shenanigans. This could open up a big can of worms if MLB lets the Phillies get away with this.

Still TBD.

From the Padres site regarding their 6-man rotation and the 6th spot that is seemingly up for grabs.
"
Based on spring performance, left-hander Jay Groome appears to be the leader for that role. Groome, who landed in San Diego in the deal that sent Eric Hosmer to Boston, posted a 1.29 ERA across five spring outings, impressing with his increased fastball velocity and smoother delivery.
"
Yup! Another feather in our roster building / development cap. As it looks now, their SS, #3 Starter and #6 Starter are 2022 Red Sox and our system.

Anyone else sick to their stomachs yet? I really hope there's a significant amount of no-shows on Thursday.

Quote from: MongoLikeSox on March 27, 2023, 11:17:03 AM
From the Padres site regarding their 6-man rotation and the 6th spot that is seemingly up for grabs.
"
Based on spring performance, left-hander Jay Groome appears to be the leader for that role. Groome, who landed in San Diego in the deal that sent Eric Hosmer to Boston, posted a 1.29 ERA across five spring outings, impressing with his increased fastball velocity and smoother delivery.
"
Yup! Another feather in our roster building / development cap. As it looks now, their SS, #3 Starter and #6 Starter are 2022 Red Sox and our system.

Anyone else sick to their stomachs yet? I really hope there's a significant amount of no-shows on Thursday.

But...but our MGT is brilliant.  They have stocked our rotation with hurlers who were Cy Young quality in 2018 and the pick of the litter for 2023 ???  But to get real, two of those starters have pitched about 25 innings, both of them in the last 2-3 years.  Like elk has said, this team will implode because of the rotation was not addressed in the off-season, except for adding a Tampa retread who can only throw an 88mph heater.

After watching a half dozen ST games, this team is not as good as last year's team was at this time.   Clearly the team is weaker defensively in the outfield, infield and behind the plate.  I foresee a lot of would-be fly outs turning into singles, singles into doubles and doubles into triples.  I also see an inordinate increase in infield hits and teams stealing bases at will.
The starting rotation is mediocre but the bullpen is worse and they still have no closer..

I see no way this team breaks .500 even with the weaker schedule.

My only hope is that Bloom is fired sooner rather than later.

And starting the 5th game for the NL Champions? You guessed it. Matt Strahm. Why not, right? That's what he wanted - a shot to start. Couldn't get that with a team that finished 14th in the AL last season in ERA, but the Defending NL champs are giving it to him.

Quote from: MongoLikeSox on March 27, 2023, 11:17:03 AM
From the Padres site regarding their 6-man rotation and the 6th spot that is seemingly up for grabs.
"
Based on spring performance, left-hander Jay Groome appears to be the leader for that role. Groome, who landed in San Diego in the deal that sent Eric Hosmer to Boston, posted a 1.29 ERA across five spring outings, impressing with his increased fastball velocity and smoother delivery.
"
Yup! Another feather in our roster building / development cap. As it looks now, their SS, #3 Starter and #6 Starter are 2022 Red Sox and our system.

Anyone else sick to their stomachs yet? I really hope there's a significant amount of no-shows on Thursday.

Meanwhile Mongo, it looks like Tanner Houck is going the way of Darwizon Hernandez, Caleb Ort and so many others from our pathetic pitching staff.  Just who the hell are these bums who tutor our pitchers.  In the pandemic season of 2020 Houck looked like a real comer, went 3-0 after being brought up and finished the season with a seven inning gem against the hated New York Yankees in the only game we won from them in the shortened season.  Now the guy looks like another washed up bum.  To me this season could be the worst of all.  We have a filthy rotten cheater as manager who also happens to have favorites and chooses them for his team even though no one else seems to rate them that high.  Why Cora is even managing the team makes we want to throw up.  Then there is Bloom who makes the the word incompetence look good compared to his performance as our head of Baseball Ops.  The GM is nothing more than a cipher dancing to Blom's tune and when we lose our last Grapefruit League Game tomorrow we will have finished 14-14-5 after winning our first eight games plus the ties. 

Guys out there, we may be headed for a total debacle this season.......Hey Henry, whether you like it or not you cheap bastard, you are going to have to fire those two pukes if only to begin the restoration our team and to save you from any more embarrassment that much of what has occured you brought on yourself.

Fred, I read something yesterday about 6-clicks into a link-path starting from Baseball Reference. They had asked Kennedy if he would offer up what he thought their biggest mistake was  with the XB negotiations. He said he would not comment on them, but did offer that one of biggest mistakes they made not directly involved with the negotiations was to talk about their desire and prioritize to keep XB here in Boston. Baghdad Bob stuff, for sure. Unless that was his was of apologizing for lying to us.

Then the oddest thing, and it might be *somewhat* true. The writer went on to write about how wonderful the current front office has been with their willingness to be so darned transparent when discussing strategy and decisions with the press and fans. I guess one mans carefully crafted spin spewage is another man's transparency? 

Quote from: MongoLikeSox on March 28, 2023, 07:42:08 AM
Fred, I read something yesterday about 6-clicks into a link-path starting from Baseball Reference. They had asked Kennedy if he would offer up what he thought their biggest mistake was  with the XB negotiations. He said he would not comment on them, but did offer that one of biggest mistakes they made not directly involved with the negotiations was to talk about their desire and prioritize to keep XB here in Boston. Baghdad Bob stuff, for sure. Unless that was his was of apologizing for lying to us.

Then the oddest thing, and it might be *somewhat* true. The writer went on to write about how wonderful the current front office has been with their willingness to be so darned transparent when discussing strategy and decisions with the press and fans. I guess one mans carefully crafted spin spewage is another man's transparency?

As long as you don't look directly into Bloom's eyes when he's lying to you, you can become immune to it.  Yet several writers fall under his gaze and lap it up.

Regarding Bloom and Kennedy's lies, like the old joke says,"How can you tell they are lying?  Their lips are moving.

Quote from: elktonnick on March 27, 2023, 04:08:30 PM
After watching a half dozen ST games, this team is not as good as last year's team was at this time.   Clearly the team is weaker defensively in the outfield, infield and behind the plate.  I foresee a lot of would-be fly outs turning into singles, singles into doubles and doubles into triples.  I also see an inordinate increase in infield hits and teams stealing bases at will.
The starting rotation is mediocre but the bullpen is worse and they still have no closer..

I see no way this team breaks .500 even with the weaker schedule.

My only hope is that Bloom is fired sooner rather than later.

Bloom has earned his ticket out of town and why that crud is still with the team only confirms my opinion that he is still in Prune Face's good graces and is doing exactly what Henry wants. Trading Benintendi for a bum like Franchy French Fry and then peddling slugger Hunter Renfroe to the Brewers  and taking the pathetic Jackie Bradley back for another round of total offensive failure speaks volumes as to how we have gone from the penthouse to the outhouse.  And have you seen our pitching the past few days.  Cutter Crawford, another trade debacle with his straight as an arrow heater that was blasted around the park this afternoon.  And let's not forget Snort Ort with another miserable one inning performance.  Can this team be as bad as last year's sad and sorry club?  Could very well be.  Bloom has been guilty of malfeasance not seen in Boston since the Yawkey days.  He and Cora should both sent packing before we have another 2012, 2014, 2015, 2020 and 2022 on our hands.

On the pitchers from the big list above front, we got one of our Rule-5 pitchers back today. Politi got returned to us. He had another implosion and gave up 3 runs in 2/3 of an inning. IIRC, that's something like 8-9 appearances, with two of them being complete duds. Easier said than done, but his numbers looked decent, otherwise.

Looks like Ward made the Nationals. No update on Song.

Some things no longer up in the air for these ex-Sox.

• Austin Davis did not land a spot on the Astros. He is starting the season in Sugarland(AAA) and is not on their 40-man roster. Not a horrible Spring. 1.92 ERA, but did have a 1.28 WHIP which seems borderline at best these days. Especially to mixed rosters.
• Bazardo is starting the year in AAA (Norfolk Tides - Orioles' affiliate now) and is not on their 40-man.
• Josh Taylor is starting the year in the Royals AAA. One disaster outing ruined his ERA, but he was still giving up a hit an outing for the most part.
• Seabold made the Rockies Bull Pen.
• Franklin German starts the year in the White Sox AAA, but he is on the 40-man Roster. Not a horrible Spring, but not a good one either. Progress on the BB front. 3 in 8.1 IP.
• Jake Reed stayed put in the Dodgers' AAA, but did have an OK Spring Training. Would have been one of our better ST pitchers.
• Jay Groome starts the year in AAA for the Padres, losing out on his bid for the 6th spot in their rotation. 
• Sawamura signed back with a team in Japan. I missed it. This was back in January.

Diekman, Wacha, Barnes, Hill, Eovaldi, Perez and Strahm are good to go (Not demoted or on the IL yet) with their respective teams. 

Lastly, Noah Song is on the Phillies 40-man Roster, but on the IL. I was wrong about the protocol back to us. If he's as good as he's supposed to be, there ain't no way we'll see him again. The more I learn about the Rule-5 protocol, the less I think of Chaim Bloom.

Quote from: MongoLikeSox on March 31, 2023, 09:16:26 AM
Some things no longer up in the air for these ex-Sox.

• Austin Davis did not land a spot on the Astros. He is starting the season in Sugarland(AAA) and is not on their 40-man roster. Not a horrible Spring. 1.92 ERA, but did have a 1.28 WHIP which seems borderline at best these days. Especially to mixed rosters.
• Bazardo is starting the year in AAA (Norfolk Tides - Orioles' affiliate now) and is not on their 40-man.
• Josh Taylor is starting the year in the Royals AAA. One disaster outing ruined his ERA, but he was still giving up a hit an outing for the most part.
• Seabold made the Rockies Bull Pen.
• Franklin German starts the year in the White Sox AAA, but he is on the 40-man Roster. Not a horrible Spring, but not a good one either. Progress on the BB front. 3 in 8.1 IP.
• Jake Reed stayed put in the Dodgers' AAA, but did have an OK Spring Training. Would have been one of our better ST pitchers.
• Jay Groome starts the year in AAA for the Padres, losing out on his bid for the 6th spot in their rotation. 
• Sawamura signed back with a team in Japan. I missed it. This was back in January.

Diekman, Wacha, Barnes, Hill, Eovaldi, Perez and Strahm are good to go (Not demoted or on the IL yet) with their respective teams. 

Lastly, Noah Song is on the Phillies 40-man Roster, but on the IL. I was wrong about the protocol back to us. If he's as good as he's supposed to be, there ain't no way we'll see him again. The more I learn about the Rule-5 protocol, the less I think of Chaim Bloom.

Meanwhike we have Brasier and Ort stinking up the joint for us and we've only played one game with those two having given up six runs and about as many hits in our first game.  Why are these two turds still with us?

I've got three games to watch at once tonight (Sox, Celtics and Canes), but there's one other game of interest. Strahm makes a start for the Phillies tonight. Against the Yanks, no less.

(btw, last years exiled rotation(Eovaldi, Wacha and Hill) went 5-5-6 IP allowing 3-3-4 runs in their first starts. Also, Martin Perez excelled in his start giving up a run over 5.2 IP.)

Eovaldi was throwing  up to 97 against a great Phils  lineup getting a shutout  for 3 innings.    He was passed over for a guy throwing 88 tops at half the salary of Nate.  Thats a steal  sigh

Strahm got his start and pitched 4 innings, 0 runs, 1H, 1BB in his start. 42 strikes in 61 pitches. I'd hazard a guess that he's earned a 2nd shot. 

Letting Strahm go is right up there on the top 5 bone head moves by Bloom

Quote from: elktonnick on April 05, 2023, 07:10:06 AM
Letting Strahm go is right up there on the top 5 bone head moves by Bloom

Right? I mean, what did he want the most from anything else? A shot to start. What did we have? A lost season. In the end, he was a burnt out and spent as anyone else on the team.

Quote from: MongoLikeSox on April 05, 2023, 07:20:09 AM

Quote from: elktonnick on April 05, 2023, 07:10:06 AM
Letting Strahm go is right up there on the top 5 bone head moves by Bloom

Right? I mean, what did he want the most from anything else? A shot to start. What did we have? A lost season. In the end, he was a burnt out and spent as anyone else on the team.

\
The Sox's pitching "philosophy" strikes again.  Get starters who can't go more than 4 or 5 innings, burn out the bullpen, keep the worst guy of the bunch and let the rest of them go.  Utter incompetence. 

Quote from: longgame on April 05, 2023, 08:17:53 AM

Quote from: MongoLikeSox on April 05, 2023, 07:20:09 AM

Quote from: elktonnick on April 05, 2023, 07:10:06 AM
Letting Strahm go is right up there on the top 5 bone head moves by Bloom

Right? I mean, what did he want the most from anything else? A shot to start. What did we have? A lost season. In the end, he was a burnt out and spent as anyone else on the team.

\
The Sox's pitching "philosophy" strikes again.  Get starters who can't go more than 4 or 5 innings, burn out the bullpen, keep the worst guy of the bunch and let the rest of them go.  Utter incompetence.

When when the hell will Henry get his head out of his ass and fired Bloom, a total moron and incompetent, and send that filthy rotten cheater packing as well?  He fired Cora after tjhe 2019 season and then rehired him?  What the hell for?  As for Bloom, he has long ago outlived his utter unusefullness.  This team is going to suck  even worse than last season.

I just took a tour of 3-week in stats of our ex-Sox runaways/castaways. Eovaldi, Wacha, Hill, Seabold(Demoted), Taylor and Diekman are off to very rough starts. German still can't throw strikes in AAA and Jay Groome(AAA) has had 2 out of 4 starts that reminded me of Kluber's line from last night.

Strahm, Barnes and Thad Ward are doing fairly well.

Strahm is the early gem of the group. He got his 3rd start, but it didn't go so well as the first two. 2.2IP, 3R. Looks like their not stretching him out yet. Pitch counts in mid 60's. Still, ERA at 2.13.

Interesting.  Still early for Wacha and Eovaldi but I would have thought Wacha would have been sharper.  Eovaldi has been in decline for a few years but he's a competitor.

Barnes always has good stretches.  It's just in critical spots where he blows up.  It's early for him too, but in the wrong way.  Strahm seemed like he was a keeper. 

Quote from: longgame on April 20, 2023, 11:50:34 AM
Interesting.  Still early for Wacha and Eovaldi but I would have thought Wacha would have been sharper.  Eovaldi has been in decline for a few years but he's a competitor.

Barnes always has good stretches.  It's just in critical spots where he blows up.  It's early for him too, but in the wrong way.  Strahm seemed like he was a keeper.

I agree that Strahm was a keeper. It's a shame he did not work out here.

The Phillies are dedicated to this experiment. They stretched him out to 80+ pitches in his rebound start, going 5.1IP. Gave up 3 earnies, but struck out 11. I think he pitches again tonight or tomorrow, IIRC.

One area Bloom did not really address in the off-season, as we all know, was the rotation. The starters going into May look like an aging MASH unit with high era's and they can't miss many bats at all. Looking at the FA for 2024, there are some good ones, maybe not the star power of the 2023 free agents.  Names that look like possible fits for Sox - Blake Snell, Kyle Gibson, Giolito, Ohtani, Scherzer, Syndegaard, and Urena.  The complete list : 

Matthew Boyd (33)
Carlos Carrasco (37)
Mike Clevinger (33)
Alex Cobb (36) â€" $10MM club option with a $2MM buyout*
Johnny Cueto (38) â€" $10.5MM club option with a $2.5MM buyout
Zach Davies (31)
Jack Flaherty (28)
Chris Flexen (29)
Kyle Gibson (36)
Lucas Giolito (29)
Sonny Gray (34)
Zack Greinke (40)
Andrew Heaney (33) â€" $13MM+ player option with a $500K buyout
Kyle Hendricks (34) â€" $16MM club option with a $1.5MM buyout
Rich Hill (44)
Jakob Junis (31)
Brad Keller (28)
Corey Kluber (38) â€" $11MM club option
Clayton Kershaw (36)
Michael Lorenzen (32)
Seth Lugo (34) â€" $7.5MM player option
Lance Lynn (37) â€" $18MM club option with a $1MM buyout*
Kenta Maeda (35)
Tyler Mahle (29)
Sean Manaea (32) â€" can opt out of remaining one year and $12.5MM
German Marquez (29) â€" $16MM club option with a $2.5MM buyout
Nick Martinez (33) â€" two-year, $32MM club option; if declined, two-year, $16MM player option
Wade Miley (37) â€" $10MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout
Frankie Montas (31)
Jordan Montgomery (31)
Charlie Morton (40) â€" $20MM club option (no buyout)
Aaron Nola (31)
Jake Odorizzi (34)*
Shohei Ohtani (29)
James Paxton (34)
Martin Perez (33)*
Eduardo Rodriguez (31) â€" can opt out of remaining three years and $49MM*
Hyun-Jin Ryu (37)*
Luis Severino (30)
Max Scherzer (39) â€" can opt out of remaining one year, $43,333,334*
Blake Snell (31)
Ross Stripling (34) â€" can opt out of remaining one year, $12.5MM
Marcus Stroman (33) â€" can opt out of remaining one year, $21MM*
Noah Syndergaard (31)*
Jose Ureña (32) â€" $4.5MM club option with a $500K buyout
Julio Urias (27)
Vince Velasquez (32)
Michael Wacha (32) â€" two-year, $32MM club option; if team declines, Wacha has $6.5MM player option (contract also contains $6MM player options in 2025-26)
Luke Weaver (30)
Alex Wood (33)

Well, if anything else, that list illustrates the importance of developing pitching. Free Agents in baseball have some age on them. Even the younger ones. So you better develop or trade for some Starters or get used to a busy medical staff. The alternative is old MASH units, or at least the risk of having one as your staff.

Meanwhile, the other half does not have it any better on the injury front. Gotham's rotation is without Montas, Severino and Rodon. Rodon's signing baffled me, but that's another day.

btw - Strahm went 5.1 IP 2H 0R in his start on only 60 pitches (odd) on Thursday Night. I'm not saying it was an obvious outcome, but sometimes giving someone you like a chance pays off. Sometimes it doesn't.

Strahm seems to be the only who believes he's a bona fide starter but he's certainly getting people on board with his performance so far this year.

As for free agent pitchers, if for some reason Bloom is still around, he'll go for the oldest guys he can get for a bargain.

Sox picked up a RH bullpen guy today.  Zach Littell was with the Rangers' AAA affiliate.  We got him for cash.  Stats - 2.25 ERA at AAA Round Rock.  Prior stops with Twins and Giants.  While in the majors for five seasons, 4.08 era and a 1.326 WHIP.

This transaction happened on same day Kutter Crawford went on the 15 day IL.

I guess the Strahm experiment is over? Last two outings were bull pen. Oddly enough. 5 days apart. 2IP and 1IP.

Eovaldi is on fire. 9, 8 and 8.2 IP. No runs. Struck out 12 in the most recent game.
Wacha's close to being back on track. Two Quality starts with 1R, 5H and 5BB combined.
Perez is closer to normal than his 2022 year so far at 4.28 ERA, IIRC.
Groome had a great rebound start in AAA, but rebounded from that and resumed his 2023 ways. Not pretty.
Thad Ward recovered from his hiccup start for a while, but has had two straight rough outings. 
Noah Song is still in Mystery Mode.
Bazardo had a rough couple games last month in AAA, but recovered well and is throwing 1-2 inning outings. 1R, 3H in 8IP. Total ERA down to 2.33.
Seabold piping up with a 4.56 ERA for the Rockies in a hybrid role. Actually won a game recently. League is hitting .295 against him.

An update on the Noah Song situation came out a few weeks ago, but I missed it. Dombrowski is playing this one rather shrewdly.  The Phillies have placed him on the 60-day IL, which is likely retroactive to the beginning of the season. He has resumed throwing at least as of 3 weeks ago. That fits in well with him being around the FCL guys for practice reps. When they deem him fit for action, he'll get his rehab stint of up to 30 days.

It's getting crunch time for that situation. He needs to spend 90 days on the Phillies active MLB roster. Do the math on this one. They've got about 3 weeks left and he has not made a single rehab appearance. If he does not make it in time, he'll got through Waivers which will have it's own set of complexity to it. I don't remember the detail, but a team cannot claim him and tuck him away somewhere. He's gotta be active or on the 40-man roster or something to that extent. So we could maybe get him back? Crunch time is nearing.

Interesting side thought. So we could have done things a little bit different when we snagged Whitlock? Might have been less risky and easier to manage. All's we heard was that he had to be on the team all year. Apparently that's not really true.

Another Sox pitcher bites the dust.  Wyatt Mills to unders TJS.  That puts him on the shelf, did not pitch at all this year and won't pitch through almost all of 2024.  For the life of me, I can't figure out how Bloom gets these pitchers.  I get it, he is told to stay under budget.  He passes on difference makers like Wacha and Eovaldi because they demand around $18mil.  Yet his prize signings are like Kluber and Paxton, get them on the cheap ticket, older, oft-injured guys, that's what he does.  Paxton has worked out this year, but he missed all, or nearly all of 2022. 

Lou Merloni said it the other day," that's what he (Bloom) does, and he is persistent to stay the course".  That's until we talk about him later as a part of Sox history, like Cherri and DD.

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on July 06, 2023, 09:16:29 AM
Another Sox pitcher bites the dust.  Wyatt Mills to unders TJS.  That puts him on the shelf, did not pitch at all this year and won't pitch through almost all of 2024.  For the life of me, I can't figure out how Bloom gets these pitchers.  I get it, he is told to stay under budget.  He passes on difference makers like Wacha and Eovaldi because they demand around $18mil.  Yet his prize signings are like Kluber and Paxton, get them on the cheap ticket, older, oft-injured guys, that's what he does.  Paxton has worked out this year, but he missed all, or nearly all of 2022. 

Lou Merloni said it the other day," that's what he (Bloom) does, and he is persistent to stay the course".  That's until we talk about him later as a part of Sox history, like Cherri and DD.

I'm still baffled at the pounce job they did to "land" Joely Rodriquez for $4M very early in the Free Agency period. I hated it the minute it happened. I don't even know what the hell is going on with that now. No rehab for 6 days. I saw a few that didn't go well, but none of the good ones.

I think Chaim got his direction shifted per directive from above this past off season, but not soon enough into the off season. Pouncing on Joely and trading for Park right away was mind boggling. The Kluber of Eovaldi/Wacha risk did not pan out, but they saved money. I wonder if they look at this was a wash.

I looked at each pitcher that I listed at the beginning of the thread. It's not a total bomb from Bloom, but it's not at all close to an overall win, either. Especially with the decisions that were actual challenging decisions and not gimmes.   

As luck would have it, the Sox are down to two reliable guys in the rotation. Three if you have to squeeze in Crawford. The irony of ironies to the pitching shortage... Bloom will trade their best pitcher, stat-wise in a couple weeks, according to Ken Rosenthal.  That is no surprise to anyone.  It's already baked in to the Tampa/Bloom strategy.  However if Paxton's name was Sale, it would make more sense.

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on July 08, 2023, 08:57:21 AM
As luck would have it, the Sox are down to two reliable guys in the rotation. Three if you have to squeeze in Crawford. The irony of ironies to the pitching shortage... Bloom will trade their best pitcher, stat-wise in a couple weeks, according to Ken Rosenthal.  That is no surprise to anyone.  It's already baked in to the Tampa/Bloom strategy.  However if Paxton's name was Sale, it would make more sense.

The Sox are in an interesting stretch. There is a clear path to them being the #2 Wild Card team before the Braves Series. If they succeed, then they've got a HUGE 2-game set against the Braves and a west coast trip against the Giants and Mariners. The first 2 Mariners games are before the deadline (one by hours). They've got days off on their side, too.

There is no way Bloom gets away with trading Paxton while in that hunt. If they slide back against lower teams again, it's over. If the breeze through the lower teams, but lose badly in the following week against better teams, it's over.

This could be a 2021 situation or it could be a 2022 situation(or what it should have been.)  If anyone covets Paxton, they had better make a nice overture before the end of the AS break to assure getting him.

Some news on the Josh Taylor front. He was scheduled to have surgery last week. I think he had it. Lower back, herniated disc. I hope he comes out of it in fine shape. 60-day IL for now.

A few little bits and pieces from some of the lesser known ex-Red Sox pitching staff that I listed in the first post of this thread. 

• Eduard Bazardo made it to Baltimore two weeks ago and did well not allowing a run in two appearances.
• Jake Diekman found the fountain of competence within the Rays Bull Pen.
• Connor Seabold is back his normal self after a few promising starts.
• Jay Groome didn't make the cut at Spring Training for the Padres. His response to that has been an awful 1st half in AAA. The past 2 games looked promising while bringing his ERA down over a run to 8.69. The key win/loss on that famous Hosmer trade will be Corey Rosier vs Groome.
• Franklin German has been DFA'd twice. This guy was a recent minor league reliever of the year for the Red Sox.
• Thad Ward, our 1st Rule-5 loss, had turned the corner by the end of May before running into a brick wall in June. His ERA nearly doubled and is now on the IL.
• Also for the Orioles, Darwinzon Hernandez started throwing strikes in June for AAA and has seen his ERA drop well into the 3's.
• Matt Barnes was off to a decent start, but imploded on June 1st and has been in the 15-day IL ever since.
• Taylor Broadway has shown the Red Sox why the White Sox gave up on him. He was demoted to Portland a short time ago.
• Inmer Lobo finally made an appearance for the Pirates DSL team last week, allowing 1 run in relief. He's what we gave up for Ho Park, one of the most bewildering Bloom moves to date. 
• Austin Davis never recovered from being Alex Cora'd and was released by Houston's AAA after posting a 11.22 ERA in 20 games.
• Ryan Brasier did the opposite, posting a 1.93 ERA for the Dodgers in 8 games so far since being called up last month.

I think we all know most of the other trades, releases and FA losses so far. A mixed bag for sure. A lot of misses by the Red Sox organization as well as some good moves not mentioned above. I don't think anyone needs any more reminders of the good players we lost after watching last night's All-Star game.
   

5 days to go! That need to be on the MLB roster Rule-5 draft thing kicks in on the 28th.

Noah Song made his AAA debut last night going 2 innings, 2H, 1R and 3K's.  His A-ball games were OK, but the AA-AAA have been a little bit rough, but not a disaster. 5.40 ERA might be higher than he deserves. Just 6 innings in 3 games. 1.60 WHIP.

I imagine he'll pitch some on Tuesday, the 25th and maybe the 27th if he fails to convince on Tuesday. Then the Phillies decide to dedicate an Active Roster spot for him for the entire rest of the year. BUT, that's not really the decision that needs to be made if it's a borderline call. The Phillies may decide if they can hide him in some mop-up role while continuing to improve without hurting the team. I think the only thing going for the Red Sox is that the Phillies are a game out of the Wildcard spot.

Even if the Phillies pull the plug on the experiment in an effort to bolster their playoff run, Song would have to clear waivers. Who's to say that the last place Royals(or anyone else) don't bite the bullet and snag him because the season is lost? Yup. Not good.

I was reading that Boston has recently hired some instructors from the Driveline college level program to work in our minor leagues.  Reportedly they have been able to improve performance and add velocity to a few pitchers coming up.  This could explain the draft of bigger frame pitchers who have shown like low 90s this year, O'Donnell, CJ Wiens, Carlson.

Noah Song Update!!!  Phillies DFA Song

Noah Song bombed his final AAA appearance. The Phillies are in a battle for a playoff spot, so they decided they cannot afford to add him to the Active Roster.  Here's the nest week.

#1: Phillies have until the trade deadline to trade him. THAT team will have to keep him on their active roster from this moment on. Beware of teams like the Royals, Nationals, etc, who can afford such a thing. I would do make that move in a NY Minute.
#2: If he is not traded, he will be placed on waivers. Any team claiming him will be subject to the same active roster requirements.
#3: If he clears Waivers, the Phillies have to offer him back to the Red Sox for $50k. The Red Sox would NOT have the same MLB Active Roster restrictions. He just becomes a minor leaguer that we do not have to protect until November.

Resolution by week's end?

I've gotta work out the math, but I'm not sure what the date is that other teams that might claim him would not be possible to make him active for the minimum Active Roster time requirements. 

Some small updates.

Wacha and Eovaldi found their way to the IL this past week.

Bazardo bombed in his brief stint with the Orioles last week and ended up getting DFA'd then traded to the Mariners.

First hurdle cleared for the Noah Song saga. Phillies were not able to trade him. He will be put on Waivers today. Hopefully we get him back. Keeping fingers crossed that Friday brings good things to us.

Jay Groome's turnaround is continuing with another quality start on Sunday. 3 QS's of his last 6 with a 3.89 ERA over that stretch. That's the good part. He still bombed in one of those starts and the overall command is still low, throwing about 60% strikes. The BA Against over that stretch is in the 260's. Clearly not good enough to convince the Padres to stay put and not go after Hill. 

When Song goes on waivers, do the teams have to deal with the Sox if they claim him or with Philly?  And he has to go straight on to their25 man roster, correct?

Quote from: longgame on August 03, 2023, 07:20:19 AM
When Song goes on waivers, do the teams have to deal with the Sox if they claim him or with Philly?  And he has to go straight on to their25 man roster, correct?

Song is officially our property today, he was unclaimed off waivers. Since he was exposed by Boston on Rule 5, and now unclaimed, he does not have to be  the on the 26 man or the 40 man right now. 

However in December, as I understand it, he has to be placed on the 40-man, or be exposed on the Rule 5 again.  However ever team in the league has evaluated him, but he could have a breakout season in August somewhere from Greenville to Portland.  Another chapter in the young man's life.

He would have to stink it up to not get drafted again. If he does anything resembling his Navy days, we'll keep him. I imagine we'll stretch him out some in Greenville or Salem before Portland? 7 weeks left, IIRC?

Edit - Straight to Worcester.

Arroyo DFAd in related move.

Now one of the Sox friendly beat reporters on the Athletic is suggesting that Song will actually be heading to Greenville in the next couple of days. I'm very curious to know how they plan to use him in the short and long term. They might be as curious as I am. I hope they start ramping him up to being a Starter, but that's a complete reversal of what the Phillies were trying to do. 

Quote from: longgame on August 04, 2023, 06:08:48 PM
Arroyo DFAd in related move.

Never a Cora favorite, the guy was jerked around by our worthless and overrated manager for almost three season while players less talented were constantly being run in and out of the lineup so Christian could never get settled in.  In fairness to the manager, it did seem that the guy was very injury prone and missed many games during that stretch, but the guys  that were kept over him, including that 160 hitter they got at the trade deadline certainly won't hit or field nearly as well in the coming two mon ths.  Congrats Cora, once again you showed your shallowness and favoritism.  Hopefully by God's grace you and that worthless bum in charge of Play Opps will both be jettisoned together.

On the Matt Barnes front, I found this in the Marlin MLB Page. Kind of old news, but I don't recall seeing it before.  Likely done for the season.
"Barnes, who has been at home in Connecticut following left hip femoral acetabular impingement surgery on July 25, and will travel to Miami next week to continue his physical therapy. He was transferred to the 60-day IL on July 28 as the corresponding 40-man roster move for the acquisition of David Robertson. The recovery timeline before Barnes can resume baseball activities is three months, meaning his season is likely over, unless the Marlins make a deep postseason run. Barnes slipped on the mound in mid-May against San Francisco, which led to the hip impingement. "

I listed 41 pitchers at the beginning of this thread. These were moves that started just prior to the 2022 deadline through on into Feb just before the 2023 Spring Training. A few weeks ago, I took the approach of looking at the list as a categorized collection of pitching decisions. A Micro look, if you will, of the Red Sox' brass had made in an effort to revamp the pitching staff going 2023.

I took the approach of Wins and Losses. I added ties as I quickly realized many of these guys were not as clear cut as hoped. Admittedly, I was surprised to come up with a winning record of 21-16-6. Not all decisions carry equal weight despite what they have seemingly thought over the years. For Example, the "Loss" in losing Eovaldi was not balanced out by the "Win" gained by DFA'ing Connor Seabold. Nor does this list address the Macros. Strength in numbers verses quality of less.

I grouped them into categories of decisions roughly resembling basic acquisition paths. To summarize, we scored very well with the who to dump categories. We scored horribly in the who to let walk via Free Agency while going 50/50 in Free Agency Acquisitions. We did very well in whom to keep when looking at the individuals, but we badly over estimated the positive impact that group would have on the season.

Anyhow, it was good fun and a nice diversion to the reality of dealing with a Real Estate disaster. (bah!!!)

************************************************************
***********  The Results Are In *********************************
************************************************************
Free Agents Market  - 3-5 
Incoming!!! (2-2) (Kenly Jansen, Chris Martin, Corey Kluber, Joely Rodriguez)
Fire in the Hole!!!  (1-3) (Matt Strahm, Michael Wacha, Rich Hill, Nathan Eovaldi)  We showed up 3-5 in the Free Agent Won-Loss column. It was never that simple to begin with for Wacha and Strahm. 2 of the 3 old guys pitched well last year as did our two best Starters from '22. Having Jansen and Martin sure kicked ass at the end of games, though. Imagine this team with the 2022 bullpen? Yikes

The Injured -  1-1-1 (James Paxton, Chris Sale, Josh Taylor) A couple of other names could have been on this list, but I reserved this group for the obvious missed season(s) or otherwise been injured forever. Both Sale and Paxton gave us more than we feared we would get. Alas, both missed 10+ starts each and have #4 Starter ERA's when the brass expected more. Taylor ended up needing surgery in KC. It would have been a victory, but his counterpart might be in this group next year.

Can't We Coach? - 0-2 (Jake Diekman, Ryan Brasier) Turns out to be a "no" in these two cases. Funny, Cora suggests that it was more rest that made Brasier pitch well for the Dodgers. Wrong as rain. Very little difference in usage between the Dodgers and Red Sox. Diekman did well two teams later.

We Gave Up On (Youth Division) - 4-0  (Jay Groome, Connor Seabold, Eduard Bazardo, Franklin German) I thought we goofed the Groome decision.

Gave Up On (Veterans) -  4-0 here, too, unless you score one less because we traded for Bleier. (Austin Davis,Sawamura,Matt Barnes,Richard Bleier)

Too Much of a Good Thing? -  1-1-1 (Noah Song, Thad Ward, Andrew Politi). The Sox were proud to lose 3 pitchers to the Rule 5 draft because of the awesome depth. Puh-lease! One of the highlights of the season was getting Song back whom Dombrowski made sure slid back another 1/2 year of development. Politi was returned to us while Thad Ward pitched his way to the bottom of the BP with a 6.27 ERA in 26 games.

Dumpster Dumps & Clusterf**k Trades - 0-0-6 (Wyatt Mills, Theo Denlinger, Jake Reed, Taylor Broadway, Inmer Lobo) I know the math doesn't add up. Real record for me is 1-4-1 Some things Math nor Science can explain, and religion don't want no part of this group. One is still injured and on our 60-man IL, which means he'll be on our 40-man Roster all frigging Winter long if we intend to have him pitch at the end of 2024 - and that's a huge stretch. One we decided he needed to pitch in AAA because his AA 4.70 ERA in his previous organization was monster-good. That, and a similar promotion worked out so well for Jeter Downs.  Now we're trying him to get back to the fountain of 2022 A+ ball. One we DFA'd without fanfare nor anyone noticing. That was actually not a bad thing overall given the way the rest of the offseason went. Case in point? Sure - the last two were involved in Chan Ho Park deals. You can't make this up.

There's a reason they call it AAAA baseball - 0-1-1 (Zach Kelly, Caleb Ort) In all fairness, Kelly might yet prove himself if the poor guy could keep his elbos from shredding.

The Future is HERE! (40-man division) - 0-1-2 (Bryan Mata, Brandon Walter, Chris Murphy) Aside from chronic arm issues and disasterous AAA debuts, this trio was designed to save the day as needed in 2023. I'm not sure who're the ties or who's the loss. Two of them did help at least a couple of times.

The Future is HERE! (MLB division) - 3-0  (Josh Winckowski, Brayan Bello, Kutter Crawford) I think all three did as well as could be hoped for. No, they were not aces or near #2 starters like we needed, but still did well.

Dumpsters smell like rose gardens - 1-0 (John Schreiber) If I had only known about Benardino last Winter.

Now We Know Who is Who:  2-1 (Tanner Houck, Garrett Whitlock, Jake Pivetta) The incumbants who just did not fit elsewhere. We all knew Houck was going to have trouble establishing himself as a mid-range Starting pitcher and they made sure that was self-prophethized. We all knew Garrett was best in the pen, and not so late at that. We all know Jake Pivetta ended 2023 as he did 2022. Reliable, but up and down. Whitlock gets the Loss here just because they expected so much from him. Can we offer a Tim Naehring Award?

It's getting to be about Free Agent time, I think Tuesday next week is the first available.  Some early wannabes for pitchers that have come up so far - we need at least two in the rotation --  Snell (too pricey for Boston), Nola, Yamomota (between Boston and Mets people think), Stroman (Breslow knows this guy well), Montgomery, Sonny Gray, and an interesting nugget for some GM looking for upside -- Luis Severino.  Would he join the host of ex-Yankees on the Sox having a comeback season playing in the ALEast?

I was just reading that Montgomery's stock has risen. No surprise with the post-season he had and having Bora$ as an agent. The famous often wrong Bowden is predicting Nola, Snell and Montgomery to each clear the 5-year, $125M mark.

St Louis is seeking 3 Starters. Sox need 2. Oh how nice it would be to be a FA Starting Pitcher.

It's gonna cost some money this year. Same story, different year. I don't need an ace. A couple #3's that can chomp some innings gives us more chances than last season.

Quote from: MongoLikeSox on November 07, 2023, 07:48:42 AM
I was just reading that Montgomery's stock has risen. No surprise with the post-season he had and having Bora$ as an agent. The famous often wrong Bowden is predicting Nola, Snell and Montgomery to each clear the 5-year, $125M mark.

St Louis is seeking 3 Starters. Sox need 2. Oh how nice it would be to be a FA Starting Pitcher.

It's gonna cost some money this year. Same story, different year. I don't need an ace. A couple #3's that can chomp some innings gives us more chances than last season.

I know Breslow was flexing his muscles last week talking about maybe no financial limits to getting the good ones.  But I don't see Henry wanting to spend for the value of Snell, Nola, Montgomery.  I think Breslow will strike a happy medium and work hard to get a #2 starter like a Stroman, Sonny Gray or Yamomota.  I think another starter will come by a trade of one of the OF's plus a prospect or two, and I heard Mayer's name come up yesterday for the first time (only from a poster).  Mayer had a brutal year in AA after he injured his shoulder running the bases (his BA went down to the .190s before they shut him down).  So you could risk selling high if another team has not done their homework, as he may struggle again in AA next year. 

Sorry to digress,  but we will surely know how confident, or desperate, Breslow will be in the next four weeks.

They say today,  at the GM meetings that Sox people spoke with the agent for Jordan Montgomery.

FYI, the following is the list of Free Agent pitchers, with the position ranking listed against all the free agents.  This week Charlie Morton and Heaney at Texas picked up their team options, or vice versa.

3 Nola
4 Yamamoto
5 Gray
6 Montgomery
7 Snell
8 E Rod
11 Imanaga
12 Hendricks
17 Lugo
18 Clevinger
20 Wacha
21 Kershaw
22 Maeda
25 Giolito
26 Lorenzen
30 Flaherty
35 Manea
39 Severino
40 Nick Martinez
43 Gibson

I was surprised to see Wacha's name on you list. I thought for sure that the Padres would pick up the team option of somewhere around $16M. (Looked up and subsequently forgot exact #'s.)

Looks like Breslow may have found a non-descript pitcher from down in never never land.
RedSox are signing LHP Helcris Olivarez to a minor league deal with an MLB Spring Training Invite.  Originally Colorado's #11 prospect. Coming off shoulder surgery, which sidelined him for most of 2022 while in the minor leagues.

The 23-year old LHP Dominican flamethrower is a former top prospect with the Rockies.

He has made 50 MiLB starts and has a career 10.4 K/9, and has touched 101 MPH.

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on November 16, 2023, 02:06:22 PM
Looks like Breslow may have found a non-descript pitcher from down in never never land.
RedSox are signing LHP Helcris Olivarez to a minor league deal with an MLB Spring Training Invite.  Originally Colorado's #11 prospect. Coming off shoulder surgery, which sidelined him for most of 2022 while in the minor leagues.

The 23-year old LHP Dominican flamethrower is a former top prospect with the Rockies.

He has made 50 MiLB starts and has a career 10.4 K/9, and has touched 101 MPH.

Gotta love Minor League free agency. :)  (I hope!)

Same old shit.  Signing a hard throwing pitcher who wasn't wanted by his old team and trying to palm him off on us.  Maybe this guy might hit the jackpot but how have we done in the past with all this dumpster diving and that is what this guy is un til he shows he is ready to be a successful big league pitcher----which from his record doesn't look to good.  Now how about getting the money ready from the vault to go out and get a couple of real solid pitchers, money be damned and start getting in front of the line with offers that will net us some real talent instead of hearing with a month or two the same sad and sorry refrain that......WE MADE HIM A GOOD OFFER BUT HE DECIDED TO SIGN SOMEWHERE ELSE which is a code phrase that we didn't want to spend the money.  I seeing some real bullshit type of work so far that almost seems a carbon copy from seasons past. Spend, spend and be smart and get good talent and stop with these horse dung signings that has bared nothing by rotten low hanging fruit too many times. GET YOUR ADD IN GEAR BRESLOW.  I don't want to hear any more about the dumpster signings.

Quote from: SeaBeachFred on November 16, 2023, 04:01:26 PM
Same old shit.  Signing a hard throwing pitcher who wasn't wanted by his old team and trying to palm him off on us.  Maybe this guy might hit the jackpot but how have we done in the past with all this dumpster diving and that is what this guy is un til he shows he is ready to be a successful big league pitcher----which from his record doesn't look to good.  Now how about getting the money ready from the vault to go out and get a couple of real solid pitchers, money be damned and start getting in front of the line with offers that will net us some real talent instead of hearing with a month or two the same sad and sorry refrain that......WE MADE HIM A GOOD OFFER BUT HE DECIDED TO SIGN SOMEWHERE ELSE which is a code phrase that we didn't want to spend the money.  I seeing some real bullshit type of work so far that almost seems a carbon copy from seasons past. Spend, spend and be smart and get good talent and stop with these horse dung signings that has bared nothing by rotten low hanging fruit too many times. GET YOUR ADD IN GEAR BRESLOW.  I don't want to hear any more about the dumpster signings.

To his credit, he did agree with you (and most of us) and sent Ort packing.   thumb_u

Still need minor leaguers too Fred.  The market for MLB players is yet to start.

First trade for Breslow.  We get a RF relief guy Isiah Campbell from Seattle for our 2B Luis Urias.
Campbell has a fastball, cutter, slider. Fastball up to 95. Pitched in both AA and the bigs last year, and was an effective 1 inning reliever.  Sox traded a righty bat IF for what looks like a Breslow/Bailey type arm with some heat.  I think I read that Campbell has six years of control with two options left.

Sox maybe fall back on a combo of Reyes, Valdez at 2B.  They could also put Raphaela in at SS and move Story to 2B.  Still other 2B options in a trade.

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on November 17, 2023, 08:06:38 PM
First trade for Breslow.  We get a RF relief guy Isiah Campbell from Seattle for our 2B Luis Urias.
Campbell has a fastball, cutter, slider. Fastball up to 95. Pitched in both AA and the bigs last year, and was an effective 1 inning reliever.  Sox traded a righty bat IF for what looks like a Breslow/Bailey type arm with some heat.  I think I read that Campbell has six years of control with two options left.

Sox maybe fall back on a combo of Reyes, Valdez at 2B.  They could also put Raphaela in at SS and move Story to 2B.  Still other 2B options in a trade.

I like this trade because Campbell had a decent ERA this past season for Seattle and used as a one inning pitcher could be a boon for us.  He at least has talent.  As for second base, get us Merrifield and no damn Valzez.  Bad enough we have a sieve defensively at third in Raffy; Valdez is worthless with a glove.  As it stands I still believe Raffy should be our DH.  HE HAS NOT IMPROVED ONE TWIT AS A FIELDER SINCE HIS ROOKIE YEAR OF 2017.  In fact he might have actually gotten worse.  Now let's sign some real position players and get us two top notch starters.  We know what we need.  Can someone convince Henry to let loose of his wallet?

Quote from: SeaBeachFred on November 17, 2023, 10:48:56 PM

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on November 17, 2023, 08:06:38 PM
First trade for Breslow.  We get a RF relief guy Isiah Campbell from Seattle for our 2B Luis Urias.
Campbell has a fastball, cutter, slider. Fastball up to 95. Pitched in both AA and the bigs last year, and was an effective 1 inning reliever.  Sox traded a righty bat IF for what looks like a Breslow/Bailey type arm with some heat.  I think I read that Campbell has six years of control with two options left.

Sox maybe fall back on a combo of Reyes, Valdez at 2B.  They could also put Raphaela in at SS and move Story to 2B.  Still other 2B options in a trade.

I like this trade because Campbell had a decent ERA this past season for Seattle and used as a one inning pitcher could be a boon for us.  He at least has talent.  As for second base, get us Merrifield and no damn Valzez.  Bad enough we have a sieve defensively at third in Raffy; Valdez is worthless with a glove.  As it stands I still believe Raffy should be our DH.  HE HAS NOT IMPROVED ONE TWIT AS A FIELDER SINCE HIS ROOKIE YEAR OF 2017.  In fact he might have actually gotten worse.  Now let's sign some real position players and get us two top notch starters.  We know what we need.  Can someone convince Henry to let loose of his wallet?

er

Interesting background on Campbell.  He was the ace pitcher at Univ Arkansas.  However their manager put him through too many innings, an old story, he suffered through a few elbow injuries in the minors.  He was Seattle's second pick in the 2019 draft.  Injuries and covid delays slowed him down, and he gave up on his curve ball and change-up, so went to the pen with a three pitch ability.

Another reliever, from the lefty side, is Brandon Hughes.  The Cubs did not tender Hughes yesterday, and Breslow, who should know him well, could make a quick decision on his value. 

Hughes, who will be 28 at the start of next month, has been non-tendered after an injury-riddled season of his own.

After posting strong numbers as a staple of the Cubs' bullpen in 2022 with a 3.12 ERA and 1.092 WHIP in 57 games, Hughes battled leg injuries throughout 2023 and was limited to just 17 games.

On paper, I am really digging this trade. 6 years of control for a sub 3.00 ERA BP guy is good by me. And to trade Urias for that is a plus. I was surprised we got anything out of him. I figured he would be non-tendered. Interesting dynamic in play with Cora obviously liking this guy a ton. His new Cora favorite, I thought.

I was never sold on Urias to begin with. I had thought even the secondary prospect (on early career injury comeback trail) they gave up was too high a price for what was a Brewers' salary dump. A SP named Blalock. Fwiw, the Brewers added him to the 40-man roster to protect him from Rule-5 despite a handful of starts at A+.

So, in about 4-5 years, we can look at what was, in the end, essentially a trade of minor league starter named Bradly Blalock for a relief pitcher named Isaiah Campbell and see how this worked out.

I'm with everyone else. It's not like it's a big impact move but it's "wicked smaht" as they say.  Dump a poor player and pick up a high potential guy showing signs of life?  Bloom would have done it the other way around.  The bigger moves will start happening soon.

The pitcher log jam may be moving.  Phils got Nola for 6/$150m as several are projecting, although the Braves outbid Philly.  The Mets are expected to deal for Yamamoto as early as next week for as much as 10/$250.  The Mets seem to have a bottomless money pit.

That would put the Sox in line for their favorite Montgomery, some are projecting 6/$135-150m.  The Yanks or Rangers may decide to bump up the bidding for Montgomery as you might expect.

The MLB site says Nolla staying still for 7 years, $172M. Two of the last 3 years in the mid 4.00's ERA a little scary, but he has not missed a start since 2017.

I didn't think there was any way that someone was not going to go mega-heavy handed and outbid the pack by a ton for Yamamoto. Mets of Giants has been my guess for a while. Glad they are not all waiting for the Ohtani circus to end first.

In the meantime we are once again running in place----or is it backwards?  OK, we have lost Nola and Dombrowski once again put one over on us and the rest of his competitors.   Now when are we going to put up and get us those two starters we need so badly?  Again, I have lost confidence in that bunch of dumb dumbs we have running the show.  I want to see something tangible done by the end of the month.  No more dumpster diving.

Quote from: SeaBeachFred on November 19, 2023, 10:04:09 PM
In the meantime we are once again running in place----or is it backwards?  OK, we have lost Nola and Dombrowski once again put one over on us and the rest of his competitors.   Now when are we going to put up and get us those two starters we need so badly?  Again, I have lost confidence in that bunch of dumb dumbs we have running the show.  I want to see something tangible done by the end of the month.  No more dumpster diving.

Keep the faith, Fred.  The more you listen to this Breslow guy, he sounds like the smartest guy in the room.  I'm still deciphering his term "circular logic".  Anyhoo, I think his first pitcher comes in a trade.  He's been dropping hints that prospects are disposable.  What about Romero, Yorke OR  Verdugo and Wickleman G. for the White Sox' Dylan Cease?  I see the Dodgers are exploring that trade too.  Breslow may use reverse logic to trick all those GMs into big mistakes.  HA HA.

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on November 20, 2023, 06:58:34 AM

Quote from: SeaBeachFred on November 19, 2023, 10:04:09 PM
In the meantime we are once again running in place----or is it backwards?  OK, we have lost Nola and Dombrowski once again put one over on us and the rest of his competitors.   Now when are we going to put up and get us those two starters we need so badly?  Again, I have lost confidence in that bunch of dumb dumbs we have running the show.  I want to see something tangible done by the end of the month.  No more dumpster diving.

Keep the faith, Fred.  The more you listen to this Breslow guy, he sounds like the smartest guy in the room.  I'm still deciphering his term "circular logic".  Anyhoo, I think his first pitcher comes in a trade.  He's been dropping hints that prospects are disposable.  What about Romero, Yorke OR  Verdugo and Wickleman G. for the White Sox' Dylan Cease?  I see the Dodgers are exploring that trade too.  Breslow may use reverse logic to trick all those GMs into big mistakes.  HA HA.

Not Yorke.  He can be our future second baseman for a long time and we need one there very badly considering what we were putting out there the last part of the season.  I like Verdugo but Cora doesn't and we all should know by now that Alexz has his favorites and damn it to hell, he will play them as he has the past few seasons.  He's as good as gone.  Romero and Winkleman are fine for trades.  I will have to hold out agreeing with you on this "smartest man in the room" stuff about Breslow.  We have seen this attitude on the past of Cora, Bloom and the rest of the front office turn our beloved team into a mass of garbage.  At any rate, you make some good points Sea Dog.  Maybe you' re on to something; certainly hope you're right on this one.

As of Monday Yamamoto has been posted.  The Sox are on the clock, they've scouted YY for over a year   I think if they strike early, they can sign this guy.  If they wait around like the last couple off-seasons, and allow the bidding to grow, they will have to move on to lesser commodities.

Last year the Sox big rival NYY outspent Boston by $90mil in payroll.  Getting fair to middling pitching isn't going to move the needle on getting from 5th to 2nd or 3rd in the East.  Yes, the Mets and Rangers are going to screw up the market with their obnoxious spending.  But likely the Rangers, having won the title, and San Diego, who seem to be trying to cut payroll, will give the Sox an opening.  In any event the next week to ten days will show if the Sox have any fight, or are they all bluster?

Interesting article by Buster Olney this week, questioning whether Boston has a market problem,
"... there is an ebb and flow to which markets are most desirable -- who would have guessed five years ago that Texas would become a destination place for pitchers? -- and right now, some agents privately say that Boston will have to overcome its reputation as a tough place to play. For some of the elite pitchers, the Red Sox might be way down the line for preferences. Boston would have to be ultra-aggressive with offers to be in play for some of the best available pitchers.”

Fred, I'm big on Yorke, too. I hope they start him in Worcester next season. Something would need to happen with Valdez, though, and I can't see that with his defense.

I thought last year's crop of FA starters was awful. I thought the best thing we didn't do was that we didn't jump on that boat. Especially the top end. This year is different. Plenty of pitchers, but the demand is massive. Probably nets us the same as last season.

The team does not deserve the best pitchers. Not until we #1: Play defense and #2: stop the way we manage the pitching game from upstairs.

Olney's right, although he's miles away from original thought, a blowhard and a Yankees' fanboy. Who wants to sign for a team that doesn't respect the role of starting pitching AND kills relief pitchers like they were expendable commodities? Yeah, Tampa's good for killing some arms, but they at least improve pitchers should they survive their stay. 

Is this really the year we ante up to the FA and trade pitching tables? It all seems a year too early. Maybe two years. I might be guilty of being negative ATM.

Quote from: MongoLikeSox on November 21, 2023, 11:56:01 AM
Fred, I'm big on Yorke, too. I hope they start him in Worcester next season. Something would need to happen with Valdez, though, and I can't see that with his defense.

I thought last year's crop of FA starters was awful. I thought the best thing we didn't do was that we didn't jump on that boat. Especially the top end. This year is different. Plenty of pitchers, but the demand is massive. Probably nets us the same as last season.

The team does not deserve the best pitchers. Not until we #1: Play defense and #2: stop the way we manage the pitching game from upstairs.

Olney's right, although he's miles away from original thought, a blowhard and a Yankees' fanboy. Who wants to sign for a team that doesn't respect the role of starting pitching AND kills relief pitchers like they were expendable commodities? Yeah, Tampa's good for killing some arms, but they at least improve pitchers should they survive their stay. 

Is this really the year we ante up to the FA and trade pitching tables? It all seems a year too early. Maybe two years. I might be guilty of being negative ATM.

Boy Mongo, you really put out a real laundry list out there for me to digest so I will try to take it one point at a time.  We both agree about Yorke.  He must not be allowed to get away.  He is  many ways a Dustin Pedroia  type of player and we badly need more of those kinds instead of bums like Valdez.  Favorite of Cora or not, the guy must not be in the lineup as a starter next season.  He is a worse fielder that even Devers and you know by now what I think of his ability with a glove......pathetic. 

As far as last year's pitchers, we goofed badly there in my opinion. We let Eovaldi and Wacha get away and replaced them with dumpster trash.  Those in Red Sox scarlet would have made a major difference to our team.  Look at what they did for their new teams and you have all you need to know. Bloom was a disgrace at BO Director....a day late and a dollar short in all phases. Thank God he's gone and I doubt if he will ever get another job at BO Director.  He's a low level bean c
counter and lucky if he get that.  He was that pathetic.

Defense can only be improved if two things happen.  One Valdez gets nowhere near second base and Cora is warned from above that he better not be tempted to put his pet there.  Secondly, and this is a tough one-----get Devers off of third base and make him the DH.  He has not only not gotten better out there since his rookie year but if anything has gotten worse.  Maybe we need to try for Toronto's guy (forget name) and try and sign him to play there.  He can field, hits righthanded and has power.  Would Prune Face be willing to put up oddles of money for him and for pitchers we need to compete?  After playing the role of a cheap bastard for the past five seasons he at least owes Red Sox fans that.

You hit the nail on the head with your next point.  You win in the Majors with starting pitching and our organization has undermined that spot for years.  We need starting pitchers to be able to go into the seventh inning to save our bullpen and not wear it out as they have done the past five seasons.  And whoever are the dumb turds upstairs trying to run the game on the field, they must be exiled down into the box seats or in their offices and  told to lay off.  That is why you have managers, coaches and maybe this time a decent pitching coach to straighten things out.  That's why they pay them, isn't it?  It might be a pipe dream on my part but these things need to happen if we are ever get out of the pest hole we are in and start being the Red Sox again.

Great post by you Mongo by the way.

A story out in the Athletic that Sox are talking to Cincy about their 2B Johnathan India.  This is a Jim Bouton piece, which used to be questionable value, but he seems to have gotten some traction with the Athletic.  So India is  very suspect at the plate, .244 in 23, .255 over three seasons, for defense he has an OOA of -2 in 23.  That's just a little better than Urias, that we just traded.  Some rumblings that they want Houck plus a prospect for this trade.  If that's the deal, I surely hope they back off.  Maybe Walter and minimal prospect in A ball would be negotiable.  They can do much better.  Adames, Merrifield maybe.

Quote from: SeaBeachFred on November 21, 2023, 03:54:12 PM
Boy Mongo, you really put out a real laundry list out there for me to digest so I will try to take it one point at a time.  We both agree about Yorke.  He must not be allowed to get away.  He is  many ways a Dustin Pedroia  type of player and we badly need more of those kinds instead of bums like Valdez.  Favorite of Cora or not, the guy must not be in the lineup as a starter next season.  He is a worse fielder that even Devers and you know by now what I think of his ability with a glove......pathetic. 

As far as last year's pitchers, we goofed badly there in my opinion. We let Eovaldi and Wacha get away and replaced them with dumpster trash.  Those in Red Sox scarlet would have made a major difference to our team.  Look at what they did for their new teams and you have all you need to know. Bloom was a disgrace at BO Director....a day late and a dollar short in all phases. Thank God he's gone and I doubt if he will ever get another job at BO Director.  He's a low level bean c
counter and lucky if he get that.  He was that pathetic.

Defense can only be improved if two things happen.  One Valdez gets nowhere near second base and Cora is warned from above that he better not be tempted to put his pet there.  Secondly, and this is a tough one-----get Devers off of third base and make him the DH.  He has not only not gotten better out there since his rookie year but if anything has gotten worse.  Maybe we need to try for Toronto's guy (forget name) and try and sign him to play there.  He can field, hits righthanded and has power.  Would Prune Face be willing to put up oddles of money for him and for pitchers we need to compete?  After playing the role of a cheap bastard for the past five seasons he at least owes Red Sox fans that.

You hit the nail on the head with your next point.  You win in the Majors with starting pitching and our organization has undermined that spot for years.  We need starting pitchers to be able to go into the seventh inning to save our bullpen and not wear it out as they have done the past five seasons.  And whoever are the dumb turds upstairs trying to run the game on the field, they must be exiled down into the box seats or in their offices and  told to lay off.  That is why you have managers, coaches and maybe this time a decent pitching coach to straighten things out.  That's why they pay them, isn't it?  It might be a pipe dream on my part but these things need to happen if we are ever get out of the pest hole we are in and start being the Red Sox again.

Great post by you Mongo by the way.

Fred, you are far too kind. I always enjoy yours, btw. I'm not as quick to the draw as you are sometimes, but you're usually on top of it. I'm either late again on Devers' defense or he turns the corner quickly. His skillset is almost there. He even charged the slow rollers/choppers better last season. Throwing inconsistencies are one thing, but getting caught watching the game instead of being in position to catch a ball thrown to his bag is maddening.

Chapman is a weapon on defense and can hit some HR's, but he is a liability on offense other than that. Whiff rate is sky high. We've got one of those at 3B already. But what a left side of the infield that would be, eh?

What's crazy on Devers is he has the tools including a cannon for an arm, but he rushes stuff. He was steadily improving with Bogey by his side. It will likely help him a lot to have a good SS next to him as opposed to the slop he played next to most of the year.

Schoenfield had an article today predicting what all 30 teams do. A pitcher for Milwaukee we've inquired about, Burnes, was projected to be traded to the Orioles straightup for Coby Mayo, a top five prospect.

He expects the Sox to do a bit of everything: Sign RHP Marcus Stroman (3 years, $63 million), RHP Nick Martinez (2 years, $25 million), LF Lourdes Gurriel Jr. (3 years, $45 million) and 2B Amed Rosario.  Also Shohei to the Dodgers for 10/520 and Yamamoto to the Mets for 7/212. With the Mariners trading from their surplus for Soto.

That puts Breslow &company coming up short on breaking the bank for the big boys.

Devers has the tools to be a gold glove 3rd baseman.  His problem is he tries too much and rushes throws.  I said he missed his mentor and big brother Bogaerts
  He needs a Spanish speaking role model to steady him.  I believe moving him to dh is the worst thing you can do for his confidence.

He wears nbr 11 the same number as Frank Malzone who in 1957 led the league in errors yet won THE gold glove as the leagues best defensive player.  Errors are not the best indicator of defensive prowess

From the lemmings that are reporting things, Yamamoto is the Sox big pitching target in FA, and they are going 'All In' to sign him.  YY was interviewed this week and said he would sign AFTER the Winter Meetings which begin in ten days on Dec 4-7.  A concern how they used this guy in Japan, in his last outing, after he announced he was leaving, his manager had him throw 131 pitches in a game.

In the meantime I get the feeling they will complete the trade for a 2B with the Reds' Johnathan India.  It seems the only holdup there is negotiating the trade pieces.  The Gleyber Torres deal would be idiotic. The Brewers have some IF's, but it looks like Sox want their pitcher Burnes in a trade.

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on November 24, 2023, 01:07:02 PM
From the lemmings that are reporting things, Yamamoto is the Sox big pitching target in FA, and they are going 'All In' to sign him.  YY was interviewed this week and said he would sign AFTER the Winter Meetings which begin in ten days on Dec 4-7.  A concern how they used this guy in Japan, in his last outing, after he announced he was leaving, his manager had him throw 131 pitches in a game.

In the meantime I get the feeling they will complete the trade for a 2B with the Reds' Johnathan India.  It seems the only holdup there is negotiating the trade pieces.  The Gleyber Torres deal would be idiotic. The Brewers have some IF's, but it looks like Sox want their pitcher Burnes in a trade.

Johnathan India, from what I read, is a below average defender. If it is true, this is a hard pass for me. I've not seen enough of him to say for myself. Other than that, he's played in 109 and 119 games the past two years, suggesting at least a little bit of trouble staying healthy. When healthy, he's a 20HR guy and a RH batter - cool. K-rate around 25% - meh, but we've had worse. Batting averages will be around .250-.265 given some space if he ever uses opposite field and a few extra doubles.

So then the question to me is defense. If he is not much better than Valdez, why bother? If he is much better than Valdez, then perhaps.

I agree that a trade for Torres would be idiotic, though I do love that bat. The defense, though. Wow and holy crap levels of bad.

I wonder about the Japanese professional leagues average amount of pitches per outing and how that 131 measures up to normal. He does get impressive innings pitched for their low number of starts. By modern MLB standards, anyhow.

I certainly wouldn't want Ohtani's contract paying him out $50MM a year.  Not sure how the Dodgers swing that either.  Economics may finally catch up with someone? (not likely lol).  I also think Yomamoto is a risk for that long of a contract at that level for never having thrown an inning in MLB.  For every Ohtani there are many DiceK's and Yoshidas.  Do you really want to break the bank on an unknown for a long period of time?   Of course the Mets aren't known for making good big money deals so maybe they'd do it and then trade him mid-year.

Those two guys will dominate the free agent talk and maybe there's a little wait and see yet on those guys, but it seems like a good opportunity to go after guys you really want and fit in your strategy.  Per some of the earlier posts, defense should be part of that strategy.  Let's put out a team that isn't embarrassing to watch.

Can't disagree Ted but you might of mentioned just who you think we should be going after----or are you going back and forth like the rest of us and can't make up your mind either.  I now have to barf or get away from the sink so I will tell you what I think we should do.  I want Whit Merrifield for second base (also can play the outfield and hits RH).  I would go all out to sign Rhys Hoskins for DH, 1B and outfield duty.....another RH with power coming off an injury with the Phillies but still young enough to make a strong comeback.  Pitching?  Yes on Yamamoto, and then sign lefthander Montgomery.  Of course, that's a large number of players so some say, BUT IN BOLD CAPS WE NEED SOME TOUGH COMPETITORS WITH TALENT to get ourselves out of the hole we're in.  Well at least I have come clean.  How about you Ted and the rest of my pals on this board.  Let's see some of you make some tough decisions as to where we should go.  You have one big consolation.......NOT MATTER WHO YOU GUYS PICK YOU CAN'T DO ANY WORSE THAT BLOOM DID OR THOSE OTHER TURKEYS IN OUR FRONT OFFICE THAT HAVE MADE OUR CLUB AN EMBARASSMENT SO FAR THIS DECADE.

The Red Sox went after pitcher Wyatt Mills in a round about way.  Two weeks ago he was non-tendered, but today they signed him to a minor league deal.  They must see a lot of value in Mills, as he underwent TJS in July and probably won't pitch in 2024.

Also the Sox attended a pitching season in the Dominican to watch 27 yr old Cuban Yuriel Rodriguez, who throws high velocity.  The Padres were the two teams to watch Rodriguez.

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on November 26, 2023, 05:14:16 PM
The Red Sox went after pitcher Wyatt Mills in a round about way.  Two weeks ago he was non-tendered, but today they signed him to a minor league deal.  They must see a lot of value in Mills, as he underwent TJS in July and probably won't pitch in 2024.

Also the Sox attended a pitching season in the Dominican to watch 27 yr old Cuban Yuriel Rodriguez, who throws high velocity.  The Padres were the two teams to watch Rodriguez.

I was wondering if something like that might happen with Wyatt Mills. He's got a lot of rehab to do and is already under the 'Sox care. Sure, he dipped his toes in and probably found a cool reception. Good move. We'll make another decision on him in Nov 24.

Quote from: SeaBeachFred on November 26, 2023, 01:36:46 PM
Can't disagree Ted but you might of mentioned just who you think we should be going after----or are you going back and forth like the rest of us and can't make up your mind either.  I now have to barf or get away from the sink so I will tell you what I think we should do.  I want Whit Merrifield for second base (also can play the outfield and hits RH).  I would go all out to sign Rhys Hoskins for DH, 1B and outfield duty.....another RH with power coming off an injury with the Phillies but still young enough to make a strong comeback.  Pitching?  Yes on Yamamoto, and then sign lefthander Montgomery.  Of course, that's a large number of players so some say, BUT IN BOLD CAPS WE NEED SOME TOUGH COMPETITORS WITH TALENT to get ourselves out of the hole we're in.  Well at least I have come clean.  How about you Ted and the rest of my pals on this board.  Let's see some of you make some tough decisions as to where we should go.  You have one big consolation.......NOT MATTER WHO YOU GUYS PICK YOU CAN'T DO ANY WORSE THAT BLOOM DID OR THOSE OTHER TURKEYS IN OUR FRONT OFFICE THAT HAVE MADE OUR CLUB AN EMBARASSMENT SO FAR THIS DECADE.

I'm with you on both Merrifield and Montgomery. I would not be upset about Yamamoto, either. I think he's too hot a commodity to be affordable, though.

No to Snell. Maybe no to Sonny Gray. He did not do well under the NY big market lights.

The Cardinals pulled two Bloom deals last week, signing Kyle Gibson and Lance Lynn. I'm SOOOO glad we don't have that going on, I think.

There is a trio of pitchers available that are probably going to be 22-25 start guys here on out. Two of them we are already familiar with in Michael Wacha and James Paxton. Wacha's been two straight nice seasons and we've seen what Paxton can do before nursing his knee late in the season. Marcus Stroman is the 3rd. He's started 27, 25 and 33 games the past three years. If we can't get Montgomery and/or Yamamoto, I could easily jump on the any number of these three for next season. I'm also OK with E-Rod.

Rob Bradford is saying the Sox are in talks this week to trade for ChiSox Dylan Cease and OF/DH Eloy Jiminez.  It will hurt some, but not too damaging.  Duran, Yorke and P Luis Perales.

"The Red Sox need no-doubt-about-it top of the rotation starters. At least one, anyway. That's why Dylan Cease's name has come up," Brad ford said Cease, it would seem, is available in a trade from the White Sox for the right price. The problem for teams drooling over the 27-year-old is that price figures to be fairly steep. While Cease's numbers in 2023 took a turn for the worse (4.58 ERA in 32 starts) after finishing second in the American League Cy Young Award balloting, there were enough signs that the righty is a pitcher a rotation can be built around.

Jiminez as a rookie, his line .274 /.331/.453/.784   19 HR 68 RBI., bats RH, 27 yo.

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on November 27, 2023, 09:37:53 AM
Rob Bradford is saying the Sox are in talks this week to trade for ChiSox Dylan Cease and OF/DH Eloy Jiminez.  It will hurt some, but not too damaging.  Duran, Yorke and P Luis Perales.

"The Red Sox need no-doubt-about-it top of the rotation starters. At least one, anyway. That's why Dylan Cease's name has come up," Brad ford said Cease, it would seem, is available in a trade from the White Sox for the right price. The problem for teams drooling over the 27-year-old is that price figures to be fairly steep. While Cease's numbers in 2023 took a turn for the worse (4.58 ERA in 32 starts) after finishing second in the American League Cy Young Award balloting, there were enough signs that the righty is a pitcher a rotation can be built around.

Jiminez as a rookie, his line .274 /.331/.453/.784   19 HR 68 RBI., bats RH, 27 yo.

I hate this. I hope it does not happen.
I do not view Dylan Cease as a "no-doubt-about-it" starter. Cease took too far of a slide last year. He was still hitable even in his good months. His two years before that had 3.91 and 4.0x ERAs. To me, he had a flash in the pan season. His velo dropped a tick, too.
Eloy Jiminez has been around a few years. Hit 31 HRs as a rookie in 2019. He's owed $48.8M over the next 3 years, but does have a pair of $3M buyouts for 2025 and 2026. No idea how he is on defense, but he's 0 for 0 in SB over 430+ games. 

So, IF Dylan Cease is a legit front line pitcher and we got him for 2 years, sure. Go for it. But I'm not seeing it.

Quote from: MongoLikeSox on November 27, 2023, 10:31:49 AM

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on November 27, 2023, 09:37:53 AM
Rob Bradford is saying the Sox are in talks this week to trade for ChiSox Dylan Cease and OF/DH Eloy Jiminez.  It will hurt some, but not too damaging.  Duran, Yorke and P Luis Perales.

"The Red Sox need no-doubt-about-it top of the rotation starters. At least one, anyway. That's why Dylan Cease's name has come up," Brad ford said Cease, it would seem, is available in a trade from the White Sox for the right price. The problem for teams drooling over the 27-year-old is that price figures to be fairly steep. While Cease's numbers in 2023 took a turn for the worse (4.58 ERA in 32 starts) after finishing second in the American League Cy Young Award balloting, there were enough signs that the righty is a pitcher a rotation can be built around.

Jiminez as a rookie, his line .274 /.331/.453/.784   19 HR 68 RBI., bats RH, 27 yo.

I hate this. I hope it does not happen.
I do not view Dylan Cease as a "no-doubt-about-it" starter. Cease took too far of a slide last year. He was still hitable even in his good months. His two years before that had 3.91 and 4.0x ERAs. To me, he had a flash in the pan season. His velo dropped a tick, too.
Eloy Jiminez has been around a few years. Hit 31 HRs as a rookie in 2019. He's owed $48.8M over the next 3 years, but does have a pair of $3M buyouts for 2025 and 2026. No idea how he is on defense, but he's 0 for 0 in SB over 430+ games. 

So, IF Dylan Cease is a legit front line pitcher and we got him for 2 years, sure. Go for it. But I'm not seeing it.

I hate it even more.  For God's sake do not trade Yorke unless we get a sure big winner on the mound.....even then no can do.  Yorke is a big part of our future and we must not trade him. Cease played for a loser the past two seasons and anyone with White Sox credentials is suspect to me.  The guy is hittable and as for Eloy, the arrow on him has been down for the past couple of years.  His near $50 million bill over he next three years could be used for better options.......and when will the damn Red Sox understand that you have to keep Duran.  After being jerked around by Cora he got his chance last year and is good for 50+ stolen bases on a team that need speed since base pilfering is not back in fashion.  He also showed he can hit if kept in the lineup, though he needs to improve against southpaws.  In conclusion I don't like anything about that potential trade.  It stinks like a sewer at high tide.

Quote from: MongoLikeSox on November 27, 2023, 10:31:49 AM

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on November 27, 2023, 09:37:53 AM
Rob Bradford is saying the Sox are in talks this week to trade for ChiSox Dylan Cease and OF/DH Eloy Jiminez.  It will hurt some, but not too damaging.  Duran, Yorke and P Luis Perales.

"The Red Sox need no-doubt-about-it top of the rotation starters. At least one, anyway. That's why Dylan Cease's name has come up," Brad ford said Cease, it would seem, is available in a trade from the White Sox for the right price. The problem for teams drooling over the 27-year-old is that price figures to be fairly steep. While Cease's numbers in 2023 took a turn for the worse (4.58 ERA in 32 starts) after finishing second in the American League Cy Young Award balloting, there were enough signs that the righty is a pitcher a rotation can be built around.

Jiminez as a rookie, his line .274 /.331/.453/.784   19 HR 68 RBI., bats RH, 27 yo.

I hate this. I hope it does not happen.
I do not view Dylan Cease as a "no-doubt-about-it" starter. Cease took too far of a slide last year. He was still hitable even in his good months. His two years before that had 3.91 and 4.0x ERAs. To me, he had a flash in the pan season. His velo dropped a tick, too.
Eloy Jiminez has been around a few years. Hit 31 HRs as a rookie in 2019. He's owed $48.8M over the next 3 years, but does have a pair of $3M buyouts for 2025 and 2026. No idea how he is on defense, but he's 0 for 0 in SB over 430+ games. 

So, IF Dylan Cease is a legit front line pitcher and we got him for 2 years, sure. Go for it. But I'm not seeing it.

Mongo, I think there is value in the Cease deal,  >IF<  you look at the competition for him.  Dodgers and Braves are also in the Cease talks this week, and they probably know pitching better than most pitching scouts in their league.  As far as the Sox, I don't think anybody can rank their rating system yet, as they're just getting started with several new guys at the top, but their scouting should have a good book on chicagoSox.  Maybe they all see that he is fixable and a return of Cease in 2022 when he was second in the Cy Young that year 14-8 and 2.2 era.  Now if they can sub Miedroth for Yorke in the trade hit, that may look like a better swap.
I saw some day/night splits on Cease which are telling
Cease daytime: 3.73 ERA, 1.29 WHIP
Cease night: 5.31 ERA, 1.53 WHIP

Baseball Trade Values indicate the White Sox would  approve the trade to include
Yorke
Schreiber
Perales
Valdez
Drohan

A caveat, he is a Boras client, so extending him after year three could be painful.

This is out there as far as pitchers who have registered interest in Boston, or not
Yamamoto - waiting to set up a Zoom call. 
Montgomery - expressed interest per McAdams; living in Boston and his wife doing a medical residency not far from Fenway Park per Cotillo
Snell - expressed interest per McAdams

Probably not -
E-rod - Robert Murray today speculated a reunion was unlikely; Cotillo has suggested previously they did not make much of an effort to bring him back the last time around…

On the table -
Dylan Cease (trade) - per McAdams

No feedback -
Inamaga, Stroman, Giolito, Paxton, Lugo, Montas, Wacha, Severino, Ryu, Lorenzen, Casey Fossum -

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on November 27, 2023, 05:32:00 PM
Mongo, I think there is value in the Cease deal,  >IF<  you look at the competition for him.  Dodgers and Braves are also in the Cease talks this week, and they probably know pitching better than most pitching scouts in their league.  As far as the Sox, I don't think anybody can rank their rating system yet, as they're just getting started with several new guys at the top, but their scouting should have a good book on chicagoSox.  Maybe they all see that he is fixable and a return of Cease in 2022 when he was second in the Cy Young that year 14-8 and 2.2 era.  Now if they can sub Miedroth for Yorke in the trade hit, that may look like a better swap.
I saw some day/night splits on Cease which are telling
Cease daytime: 3.73 ERA, 1.29 WHIP
Cease night: 5.31 ERA, 1.53 WHIP
A caveat, he is a Boras client, so extending him after year three could be painful.

All good points. One thing I don't know is pitching mechanics and such. If the Dodgers and Braves are willing to give up big pieces, perhaps he is a better candidate for a bounce-back year than I fear.

The Day-Night splits look like the opposite of Bello's Summer last season.

I think Cora is the bigger problem with a possible ERod return than the Red Sox brass not trying to sign him after 2021. We all remember ERod's last Fenway moment as glorious until Cora showed him up for talking smack back to Correa. Tsk tsk.

If this trade happens, I hope they're right. As presented, this has a decent chance to have some bad effects on the team now and in future years without improving them all that much next year. Which Cease we get ultimately decides if it's worth the price. It kills Yoshida chances for AB's at DH(and us getting better OF defense). The money spent on Jiminez could be spent elsewhere. We'd be 2-3 years away without a strong 2-way 2B prospect being ready unless Meidroth rebounds and/or Bonaci gets out from under that domestic Restricted list thing he's on now. I have not even brought up Duran.

Some additional food for thought. Take away just one year and Dylan Cease is in the low 30's QS% percentage. His Quality Start percentages were 21%, 33%, 31%, 50% and 36%. Inning depth was one of our biggest starting pitching problems last year. Inning depth into games. Bello (54%), Paxton (42%), Pivetta (31%), Sale(30%), Houck (24%) and Crawford(17%) are the incumbents SP. Pivetta and Sale each fell one start shy of Cease's 36% last year, which was his second best year to that end.

There are a lot of pitchers in the FA market and there's already some movement.  It looks like everyone is in on Yamamoto so that's a total wild card, so will teams want to jump before that deal sets a market or will agents want to wait for the same?  What's the Sox's plan if they don't get him?  Why give up a bunch of guys for Cease when you can get Snell or Montgomery for just money?  I saw enough of E-Rod and we all know the story - good stuff, doesn't keep his head in it. I don't see the Sox fixing that. There are also guys down the list, like Wacha, that wouldn't be a bad addition.

Quote from: longgame on November 28, 2023, 09:22:39 AM
There are a lot of pitchers in the FA market and there's already some movement.  It looks like everyone is in on Yamamoto so that's a total wild card, so will teams want to jump before that deal sets a market or will agents want to wait for the same?  What's the Sox's plan if they don't get him?  Why give up a bunch of guys for Cease when you can get Snell or Montgomery for just money?  I saw enough of E-Rod and we all know the story - good stuff, doesn't keep his head in it. I don't see the Sox fixing that. There are also guys down the list, like Wacha, that wouldn't be a bad addition.

It looks like the FA market has gone upside down.  It used to be they went for the money.  Now free-agents seem to be looking for incidentals along with the money.  Snell was quoted he wanted to stay on the West coast, near his home in Seattle.  Yamamotto wants a team with one of his home town Japan All-star boys.  Montgomery might like to stay near his wife, who now works in Boston.  Last year we lost out on Dansby Swanson, because his wife played on a team in Chicago. 

I'm concerned whether playing in Boston has become toxic, (because of Cora or the owners??).  We might end up over-paying for players, or worse settling on what's left near the bottom of the barrel.  Sure hope I'm wrong on all that.

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on November 28, 2023, 09:40:43 AM

Quote from: longgame on November 28, 2023, 09:22:39 AM
There are a lot of pitchers in the FA market and there's already some movement.  It looks like everyone is in on Yamamoto so that's a total wild card, so will teams want to jump before that deal sets a market or will agents want to wait for the same?  What's the Sox's plan if they don't get him?  Why give up a bunch of guys for Cease when you can get Snell or Montgomery for just money?  I saw enough of E-Rod and we all know the story - good stuff, doesn't keep his head in it. I don't see the Sox fixing that. There are also guys down the list, like Wacha, that wouldn't be a bad addition.

It looks like the FA market has gone upside down.  It used to be they went for the money.  Now free-agents seem to be looking for incidentals along with the money.  Snell was quoted he wanted to stay on the West coast, near his home in Seattle.  Yamamotto wants a team with one of his home town Japan All-star boys.  Montgomery might like to stay near his wife, who now works in Boston.  Last year we lost out on Dansby Swanson, because his wife played on a team in Chicago. 

I'm concerned whether playing in Boston has become toxic, (because of Cora or the owners??).  We might end up over-paying for players, or worse settling on what's left near the bottom of the barrel.  Sure hope I'

m wrong on all that.

I think you raise a valid point.  I can not for the life of me think any pitcher would want to pitch for Cora.  Breslow has his work cut.

Quote from: elktonnick on November 28, 2023, 12:38:41 PM

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on November 28, 2023, 09:40:43 AM

Quote from: longgame on November 28, 2023, 09:22:39 AM
There are a lot of pitchers in the FA market and there's already some movement.  It looks like everyone is in on Yamamoto so that's a total wild card, so will teams want to jump before that deal sets a market or will agents want to wait for the same?  What's the Sox's plan if they don't get him?  Why give up a bunch of guys for Cease when you can get Snell or Montgomery for just money?  I saw enough of E-Rod and we all know the story - good stuff, doesn't keep his head in it. I don't see the Sox fixing that. There are also guys down the list, like Wacha, that wouldn't be a bad addition.

It looks like the FA market has gone upside down.  It used to be they went for the money.  Now free-agents seem to be looking for incidentals along with the money.  Snell was quoted he wanted to stay on the West coast, near his home in Seattle.  Yamamotto wants a team with one of his home town Japan All-star boys.  Montgomery might like to stay near his wife, who now works in Boston.  Last year we lost out on Dansby Swanson, because his wife played on a team in Chicago. 

I'm concerned whether playing in Boston has become toxic, (because of Cora or the owners??).  We might end up over-paying for players, or worse settling on what's left near the bottom of the barrel.  Sure hope I'

m wrong on all that.

I think you raise a valid point.  I can not for the life of me think any pitcher would want to pitch for Cora.  Breslow has his work cut.

I'm beginning to smell a dumpster and a few of the morons running our organization are heading in that direction with knife and fork to sample the dredge of puke lying in there.

Quote from: SeaBeachFred on November 28, 2023, 03:03:06 PM
I'm beginning to smell a dumpster and a few of the morons running our organization are heading in that direction with knife and fork to sample the dredge of puke lying in there.

I do applaud him for at least making an effort so far to bolster the pitching infrastructure. That said, my patience will be greatly reduced on Thursday Morning if we wake up to another empty Winter Meetings.

We've already seen two things that we are not used to seeing. Signing Minor League Free Agents that are still somewhat young and have remaining upside. We made a trade on someone we were going to non-tender for a promising rookie reliever, albeit one with an elbow that Cora will be forced to limit. 

I think there is going to be a lot of movement starting next week.It looks like the big signing is already lined up in Ohtani to Dodgers.  At the meetings the Sox seemed poised to do a trade with somebody like Seattle, again.  Logan Gilbert's name has been floated.  Yamamoto is going to take his time to drive up his value. 

Sox look good to get either Yamamoto or Montgomery.  Anything less than those two just isn't going to move the needle for a team floating around the basement for a number of years.

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on December 02, 2023, 01:48:52 PM
I think there is going to be a lot of movement starting next week.It looks like the big signing is already lined up in Ohtani to Dodgers.  At the meetings the Sox seemed poised to do a trade with somebody like Seattle, again.  Logan Gilbert's name has been floated.  Yamamoto is going to take his time to drive up his value. 

Sox look good to get either Yamamoto or Montgomery.  Anything less than those two just isn't going to move the needle for a team floating around the basement for a number of years.

Yamamoto AND Montgomery!!!!!!!  Then add Merrifield and Hoskins, two RH hitters with sting. The time has come to end these stupid half-ass measures and start acting like a big market team. Henry had done enough damage the past five seasons to last a Red Sox fan's lifetime and has pretty much scuttled most of the good cheer he brought his way through the championships he helped together.   He now is looked upon as a screwball cheapskate who has clearly misread the fandom of the team he owns.  Prune Face---EITHER SHIT OR GET OFF THE POT!!!!!!!

A writer named Susan Slusser (SanFrancisco Chronicle) says that San Fran may now have the edge with dealings for Yamamoto.  She says the feeling is coming from other teams that are bidding.  If at all true, I hope the Sox are strong on Montgomery.

Some are saying the market for Yammy is 7/$220m.  Plus, the lucky suitor is stuck with a $35mil posting fee.  Another Japanese pitcher, lefty Shōta Imanaga, could be on the wish list.   Also the Sox are kicking the tires on ex-NYY Domingo German, who was slapped with suspensions for spousal abuse and alcohol abuse for a couple years.  Please stop !!

With the Sox revamping their approach to pitching from top to bottom of the organization, they have not analyzed what the combo of Wong-Guire can affect the pitching behind the plate.  Olney says the Sox may have inquired about Maldonado this week.

As the Red Sox move into the Craig Breslow era with a focus on pitching, they have interest in veteran catcher Martin Maldonado, renowned for his handling of pitchers. Maldonado, 37, played with the Astros the past five seasons, and in his time with Houston, his pitchers and managers strongly advocated for him to be behind the plate -- while the Houston front office looked for alternatives because of Maldonado's subpar offensive production. Last year, Maldonado hit .191 with 15 homers, a .258 on-base percentage and 66 adjusted OPS+. Maldonado has a longstanding friendship with Boston manager Alex Cora, who, like Maldonado, grew up in Puerto Rico. Last year, Connor Wong was the primary catcher for the Red Sox, playing in 126 games and generating an 80 adjusted OPS+. Reese McGuire (also with an 80 adjusted OPS+) was the backup. -

Lots of reports saying the Sox aren't among the front runners for Yamamoto, but I don't put too much stock on those reports as they're just trying to put something out there. See also the football reporter who made stuff up when she couldn't talk to the coaches during half time. Still, Breslow needs to make a move on the pitching front as they need more than one starter anyhow and Montgomery seems to be the next guy in the chute.  Go and get him Craig.

I wonder how long they project Teel to come up?  He's the #3 prospect in the system I believe I saw.  Probably not a 2024 candidate until late in the year so it makes a short term catching solution make sense.  But the FA catcher's market is led by Gary Sanchez and his 3.0 WAR.  No thanks!

Merloni thinks he knows where the timetable probably falls with the FA pitchers.  Yamamoto has said he is having more meetings AFTER the winter meetings.  Montgomery's plan is to see Yamamoto's contract before he decides. 

Per Merloni, a fail safe for the Sox,  who are looking at two pitchers, might be left with just one of their Plan A's, and to get two in the next few weeks might grab Seth Lugo.  Lugo equates to a back end of rotation pitcher, who would dublicate Pivetta and Houck.  So the pickings could be slim, unless the Sox wine and dine one of the top two pitchers.

Personally I really hope they work out a trade for a top of rotation pitcher before they go the Lugo route.

Yeah, the Winter Meetings is in pre-strike hurry up and wait mode.   sigh

I think Teel might be a late season call up in 2025 unless he proves the bat to be no fluke and the defense shines as brightly as it did this past Summer. He'd have to force his way up. It was a real treat to see him play on MiLB-TV. It looked like A+ Greenville was his team just a couple weeks after getting there, which was almost as long as he was even there before being promoted to AA. I wonder if Hickey will go to AAA to join Scott as a dual LHB catching tandem.

So last night and this morning the buzz on social media was the Sox weren't in on Yamamoto.  Now they are saying he's a "top priority".  Apparently the thinking is he'll sign after Ohtani and before the end of December.

In the Rule 5 Draft, the Sox lost a couple of pitchers, Drohan to the White Sox and Ryan Ammons, a recent draft pick to the Mets.  For the Sox they received relief pitcher Justin Slaten from the Mets in a trade for Ammons.  The Rangers made Slaten available in the Draft and was initially claimed by the Mets.

Slaten was a 3rd round pick in the 2019 draft out of the University of New Mexico. He was Rule 5 eligible last year, but unclaimed.  Slaten put up a 2.87 ERA in 59.2 IP in 2023, however, between AA and AAA, and was seen as someone who had   a strong likelihood of getting picked in this year’s draft. The Rangers added relief pitchers Marc Church and Antoine Kelly to the 40 man roster last month, as well as Grant Anderson and Jake Latz during the 2023 season, making it harder to justify also adding Slaten.



From Baseball America - " In a moment of unity between the Roboscout and the industry, the robot identified Justin Slaten as the top available player in the Rule 5 draft. He has the second-highest Roboscore, the highest among players who reached the high minors and the third highest Stuff+ score. Over the last week, Slaten’s name has been the buzziest of potential picks. Slaten was also one of five pitchers with intriguing stuff from the Arizona Fall League we identified last month."

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on December 06, 2023, 02:53:16 PM
In the Rule 5 Draft, the Sox lost a couple of pitchers, Drohan to the White Sox and Ryan Ammons, a recent draft pick to the Mets.  For the Sox they received relief pitcher Justin Slaten from the Mets in a trade for Ammons.  The Rangers made Slaten available in the Draft and was initially claimed by the Mets.

Slaten was a 3rd round pick in the 2019 draft out of the University of New Mexico. He was Rule 5 eligible last year, but unclaimed.  Slaten put up a 2.87 ERA in 59.2 IP in 2023, however, between AA and AAA, and was seen as someone who had   a strong likelihood of getting picked in this year’s draft. The Rangers added relief pitchers Marc Church and Antoine Kelly to the 40 man roster last month, as well as Grant Anderson and Jake Latz during the 2023 season, making it harder to justify also adding Slaten.



From Baseball America - " In a moment of unity between the Roboscout and the industry, the robot identified Justin Slaten as the top available player in the Rule 5 draft. He has the second-highest Roboscore, the highest among players who reached the high minors and the third highest Stuff+ score. Over the last week, Slaten’s name has been the buzziest of potential picks. Slaten was also one of five pitchers with intriguing stuff from the Arizona Fall League we identified last month."

We also lost Ryan Fernandez in the MLB phase, one of the recent Worcesters bombs. At the end of the day, we now lost 10 guys this year between the two phases and a trade while adding an organizational type catcher(I think?) and now Justin Slaten. 8 pichers gone in all and we're bad at pitching. Gotta love baseball math.

E-Rod to D-Backs 4yrs./$80MM

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/39060457/eduardo-rodriguez-diamondbacks-reach-4-year-deal (https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/39060457/eduardo-rodriguez-diamondbacks-reach-4-year-deal)

Things are heating up, Sox need to be making moves.

See also, Kimbrel to O's for a one year deal.

I'm reducing my expectations for the Sox this winter in FA.  I don't see the urgency in getting front line pitchers or elite field players.  Philly, Atlanta, NY have gotten off to really good starts at targeting their guys, then sealing the deal.  Still lots of pitching to be decided, but the Sox have put themselves into a place where they get their A guy, or they lose and are left with more distant mid-to back of rotation pitchers.

More and more it looks like a two-year reset, 2024 being year 2.  Bloom paved the way for the minors, now Breslow, who has never been even an asst. GM in title, seems to be learning the ropes and getting to know the other GMs and earning their respect.  I sure hope they surprise me.

I'm not trying to give Breslow a free pass or anything of the sort, but we are not "there" yet when it comes to our farm system. We don't have a crop of young stud arms and stud near-ready position players primed to make the jump from AAA to MLB. We're a year from that and maybe more for the pitchers. We want to be where the Orioles are. We COULD have been closer next year if we didn't cluster-f**k the '22 and '23  trade deadlines.

Simply put, 8 of the Orioles 11 top 11 prospects are in AAA or on their 40-man roster. We've got 3. All of their top guys have proven themselves in AAA with power and batting average. Plus they can play when they get here. We've seen it for two years now.

We do have 6 guys that CAN be at that state of readiness by this time next year. I mean some good ones, too. We've got other guys in our top-10 to top-20 we hope can turn the corner in AA and continue on to AAA to make some of the blue chippers expendable. On top of that, we have 2-3 others that need to get and stay healthy, 1 to get out of legal troubles, several more even to get over 2nd half slumps and/or finish learning how to throw runners out and/or field their positions.   

What do teams want at the trading deadline for their controllable talent? MLB-ready or near ready talent. We can't compete on the trade front yet, YET. We're a year from there, or 2 at the most. We are more than a couple starters and a 2B from being a 90-win team. I expect to be much more optimistic this time next year. A great foundation is almost in place. I would gladly give up a chance at an 85 win season in 2024 for sustained 90+ seasons starting in 2025 and even more wins beyond that. This is not far off.

My frustration is we are seeing other teams identifying guys and going out and getting them. The Sox are going to need another starter even if they get Yamamoto (which I'm not expecting now since they can't seem to open the wallet), then go after Montgomery who is living in Boston.  Send his wife flowers every morning.  Wine and dine the heck out of him.  Get Pedro involved.  Then show him the money.  Pitching is so bad, they can't wait for leftovers.  Plus we know we still need a 2B and at least one veteran OF, hopefully a catcher.  Nothing to show with a lot of huge needs.

Quote from: longgame on December 07, 2023, 03:57:44 PM
My frustration is we are seeing other teams identifying guys and going out and getting them. The Sox are going to need another starter even if they get Yamamoto (which I'm not expecting now since they can't seem to open the wallet), then go after Montgomery who is living in Boston.  Send his wife flowers every morning.  Wine and dine the heck out of him.  Get Pedro involved.  Then show him the money.  Pitching is so bad, they can't wait for leftovers.  Plus we know we still need a 2B and at least one veteran OF, hopefully a catcher.  Nothing to show with a lot of huge needs.

I said something similar to a post by Mongo just minutes ago.  I'm beginning to believe that John Henry is really going to sit on his hands again this off season and pretend that black is white and try to fool  the fans again.  He will have good luck with the boot lickers and pink hot fans  but another horse dung season in 2024 will in my opinion turn all of Boston in a quest for Henry's ass.

John Morosi thinks Ohtani could make his decision as early as today.  That in itself would start the movement of the bottleneck for some of the big ticket pitchers, which has reached a standstill.

Rosenthal does not see Montgomery returning to Rangers.  I'd take a guess that Sox are 66% if there are three teams bidding.

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on December 08, 2023, 08:18:12 AM
John Morosi thinks Ohtani could make his decision as early as today.  That in itself would start the movement of the bottleneck for some of the big ticket pitchers, which has reached a standstill.

Rosenthal does not see Montgomery returning to Rangers.  I'd take a guess that Sox are 66% if there are three teams bidding.

I was just coming on to post the same. Also, a lot of rumors surrounding the Yanks and Yamamoto.  One article had this quote: "The Yankees, meanwhile, have a strong desire to land Yamamoto and a willingness to show Evil Empire levels of financial aggressiveness"

It would be nice to have the Sox show some levels of financial aggressiveness instead of watching everyone else do it.

The pitchers that we've lot out on so far are not the ones we were targeting or ones we had any sort of chance on. No way for ERod, though affordable. Forget Gray in big pressure towns and Nola was never going anywhere.

Not getting Yakamoto is and has been the likely outcome for us, but that's on FSG more than anything else, I think, but only to a point of sanity. Not getting Montgomery should we fail to land Yakamoto is the bigger fail for me.

I think the Yankees PR machine is in full scare everyone off mode. Then again, they have the $$ to back it up.

The current rumor is Ohtani to Toronto.  I don't see it. Leave the US?  Canadian Taxes?  Not sure that's the way to maximize his earnings although technically it's a bigger market than Boston. 

I think it's just people overreacting becuase he's going to visit with them.

Quote from: longgame on December 08, 2023, 03:45:15 PM
The current rumor is Ohtani to Toronto.  I don't see it. Leave the US?  Canadian Taxes?  Not sure that's the way to maximize his earnings although technically it's a bigger market than Boston. 

I think it's just people overreacting becuase he's going to visit with them.

Morosi said Ohtani was en route to Toronto today, however JM could not find any facts on a contract.
Not good for the competition for Yamamoto.  Dodgers bid on Ohtani, now needing pitching just as bad, they will be spiking the bids.

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on December 08, 2023, 05:11:03 PM

Quote from: longgame on December 08, 2023, 03:45:15 PM
The current rumor is Ohtani to Toronto.  I don't see it. Leave the US?  Canadian Taxes?  Not sure that's the way to maximize his earnings although technically it's a bigger market than Boston. 

I think it's just people overreacting becuase he's going to visit with them.

Morosi said Ohtani was en route to Toronto today, however JM could not find any facts on a contract.
Not good for the competition for Yamamoto.  Dodgers bid on Ohtani, now needing pitching just as bad, they will be spiking the bids.

What a short term hysteria on Twitter.  Now he’s not even traveling there. 

Quote from: longgame on December 08, 2023, 06:23:22 PM

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on December 08, 2023, 05:11:03 PM

Quote from: longgame on December 08, 2023, 03:45:15 PM
The current rumor is Ohtani to Toronto.  I don't see it. Leave the US?  Canadian Taxes?  Not sure that's the way to maximize his earnings although technically it's a bigger market than Boston. 

I think it's just people overreacting becuase he's going to visit with them.

Morosi said Ohtani was en route to Toronto today, however JM could not find any facts on a contract.
Not good for the competition for Yamamoto.  Dodgers bid on Ohtani, now needing pitching just as bad, they will be spiking the bids.

What a short term hysteria on Twitter.  Now he’s not even traveling there.

It broke this afternoon.  Dodgers are the winner of the sweepstakes, costing a cool $700 mil however that gets divied up.  What a drama queen this guy is.  At one time he was asking for part ownership.

They're paying him as if he is both the best hitter and pitcher in the league and hoping he will be for 10 years. The guy is great, but that is ridiculous.