Re: Red Sox Transformation

Started by Sea Dog 23, October 12, 2021, 02:01:55 PM

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Sea Dog 23

This tweet came from the desk of Bill Koch, sportswriter Providence Journal, back in August.

"Ownership and the front office quit on the #RedSox before the 2020 season. We all saw the results.

They waited until 104 games into this 2021 season to do the same. It now feels eerily familiar.

Alex Cora and his players were abandoned. Any good will Boston fostered is eroding."
9:21 PM · Aug 6, 2021·Twitter Web App

It is easy to employ hindsight on October 12.  Whereas ownership supposedly screwed the team trading a #18 prospect for Schwarber and getting Sale back off the IL as a new pitcher.  Meanwhile the Yankees boltered their roster by trading 5 of their top 25 prospects for Gallo and Rizzo and also getting a couple other pitchers in other deals.  How did all that work out?  Instead of cleaning house with all the underachievers in August, Mr. Bloom may have paved the way for creating roster slots for some of these mediocre players who are now applauded nightly at Fenway.  Was that all by luck, or did Chaim have all of this in mind a couple months ago?

longgame

I have to admit, I was a huge critic of the team at that time and felt exactly the same.  The early returns seemed to bolster it and as late as 2 weeks ago as they were losing a series to Baltimore after being swept by the Yankees, it seemed to be holding true. 

Just a very strange season in which they played very well for more than half the season and then fell completely apart for a month.  I think where they "fooled" everyone was that they had that couple of weeks of half the team being out due to Covid.  Even though they actually played better with the second and third string than expected, it seemed they were going nowhere.  In retrospect that Covid respite may have given some players a late season rest which in the long run didn't hurt them if they weren't sick. 

Now they seem like world beaters, but we also know they can go cold in a heartbeat.  Also, they gave up 20 runs in 4 games against the Rays, so they'll likely need to slug their way through the next series too.  I don't know where they'll go from here but I've been enjoying the ride so far!

SeaBeachFred

Count me in as one of those who couldn't figure out this team and still is at a loss to wonder just what kind of team they really are.  All I can do is stay on the roller coaster, enjoy some of the ride and endure  the other parts because the 2021 Red Sox will test us I'm sure the next playoff series as well.  But so far, so good.  We sent the Yankees packing for home the critical one game do or die game, then after getting our lunches eaten in the first game, then came back to sweep the Rays three straight.  At least we will have a few days to catch our breaths and get our hearts back in rhythm. For me it has been a nice smooth ride the past week for the most part.

markj

Looks like it'll be the 'Stros on Friday. White Sox getting their butts kicked. They're all done.

MongoLikeSox

I've also said it many times that I cannot figure out if this was the worst good-team or the best bad team I've seen in some time. I think I'm leaning towards the worst best team ever.

Basically, We hid behind a lot of problems that were really beginning to show themselves.  That's the history of baseball. Some teams overcome bad atrributes early, but baseball catches up and balances the ledger by way of exploiting them.

We could write a book on the Red Sox Covid outbreak silver-lining this season. It worked out so well that a disgruntled Yankees' fan might call foul.

There is a reason this team had to fight on the last day of the season. This teams' foundation was became much better than a 92-win team. What Cora and his greatly handicapped players did was build a city out of that lowest level erector set us poor kids got back in the day and a whole bunch of fumes.

For all his deficiencies as a favoritism laden Manager and his arm burning and pitching misuse, he is re-writing the post-season playbook with the pitching. (fwiw - I think where pitching lands for all of baseball is worthy of a whole other topic.)

Sea Dog 23

Quote from: MongoLikeSox on October 13, 2021, 07:40:49 AM
I've also said it many times that I cannot figure out if this was the worst good-team or the best bad team I've seen in some time. I think I'm leaning towards the worst best team ever.

Basically, We hid behind a lot of problems that were really beginning to show themselves.  That's the history of baseball. Some teams overcome bad atrributes early, but baseball catches up and balances the ledger by way of exploiting them.

We could write a book on the Red Sox Covid outbreak silver-lining this season. It worked out so well that a disgruntled Yankees' fan might call foul.

There is a reason this team had to fight on the last day of the season. This teams' foundation was became much better than a 92-win team. What Cora and his greatly handicapped players did was build a city out of that lowest level erector set us poor kids got back in the day and a whole bunch of fumes.

For all his deficiencies as a favoritism laden Manager and his arm burning and pitching misuse, he is re-writing the post-season playbook with the pitching. (fwiw - I think where pitching lands for all of baseball is worthy of a whole other topic.)

Mongo, the pitching in baseball this year is something that GMs will dissect the whole off-season.  You got NYYs Cole that got bombed in the WC,  a steady Rays pitcher McClanahan that we destroyed in the final, the gold standard for Brewers in Hader giving the game winning dinger to Braves.  It goes on and on.  I'm not sure what Bloom will put on his balance sheet after Eovaldi, Sale, Houck and Whitlock. 

Sea Dog 23

The Sox were wild swingers at the plate, game after game.  But against Tampa they seemed to have a completely different mindset.

One facet of the game stood out to Kevin Cash, however, when the Rays manager was asked Monday night after Boston’s 6-5, walk-off win over Tampa Bay whether anything about the Red Sox’s AL Division Series victory surprised him.

“Well, look, I think they had a pretty relentless approach at the plate. We just could not create that swing and miss that we’ve done so well throughout the regular season,” Cash told reporters, as transcribed by ASAP Sports. “They really had a good approach. It felt like there was constant pressure. There were no easy outs.

“For us being a team that seems to strike a lot of guys out, we did not rack up the strikeouts like we typically do.”

(Cora) “It’s huge because at one point during the season, we were chasing 38% of the pitches, and we were swinging and missing at a horrible rate,” Red Sox manager Alex Cora told reporters after Monday’s win. “Even 10 days ago, when we went to Baltimore and then we went to Washington, we were striking out a lot. We were chasing a lot of pitches.

“I think playing (the Rays) 19 times, it helped. It helped. We played the Yankees. We knew them. They know us. Same thing with (the Rays). We did a good job staying humble, staying humble. I think that’s the word. Stay humble. Stay humble with your approach. Don’t try to do too much, and good things happen.”

MongoLikeSox

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on October 13, 2021, 08:07:16 AM
Mongo, the pitching in baseball this year is something that GMs will dissect the whole off-season.  You got NYYs Cole that got bombed in the WC,  a steady Rays pitcher McClanahan that we destroyed in the final, the gold standard for Brewers in Hader giving the game winning dinger to Braves.  It goes on and on.  I'm not sure what Bloom will put on his balance sheet after Eovaldi, Sale, Houck and Whitlock.
I agree. One interesting tidbit to look at this year is innings pitched leaders. Lower and lower and lower each year for a few years. For the Red Sox, we have 4-of-5 opening day rotation guys still active. Maybe even a 5th unless Richards' hammy is severe.

Innings still have to be pitched, though. I give you the Tampa Bay Rays and their 40+ pitchers used. They, and others, burned up bullpen arms like mad this year. We had our share, but far, far less.

On a side - It's also very interesting that you mention Hader. I keep hearing Craig Counsell's name often credited as being the NL version of Cash in terms of progressive managerial approaches. He broke his season long formula due to injury(?) last night by putting Hader in for the 8th and it cost them. Matchup ball does not without risks.


MongoLikeSox

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on October 13, 2021, 08:17:42 AM
The Sox were wild swingers at the plate, game after game.  But against Tampa they seemed to have a completely different mindset.

One facet of the game stood out to Kevin Cash, however, when the Rays manager was asked Monday night after Boston’s 6-5, walk-off win over Tampa Bay whether anything about the Red Sox’s AL Division Series victory surprised him.

“Well, look, I think they had a pretty relentless approach at the plate. We just could not create that swing and miss that we’ve done so well throughout the regular season,” Cash told reporters, as transcribed by ASAP Sports. “They really had a good approach. It felt like there was constant pressure. There were no easy outs.

“For us being a team that seems to strike a lot of guys out, we did not rack up the strikeouts like we typically do.”

(Cora) “It’s huge because at one point during the season, we were chasing 38% of the pitches, and we were swinging and missing at a horrible rate,” Red Sox manager Alex Cora told reporters after Monday’s win. “Even 10 days ago, when we went to Baltimore and then we went to Washington, we were striking out a lot. We were chasing a lot of pitches.

“I think playing (the Rays) 19 times, it helped. It helped. We played the Yankees. We knew them. They know us. Same thing with (the Rays). We did a good job staying humble, staying humble. I think that’s the word. Stay humble. Stay humble with your approach. Don’t try to do too much, and good things happen.”
That is awesome! I love it. Millions of baseball fans at once saying - "ya think?"

longgame

I just posted on another thread about the Sox' approach and how it worked by being aggressive with the Tampa pitchers and not sure it will work against a team like Houston with a more traditional starting rotation.  They had a lot more quality starts than the Sox and that tells me that the Sox need to make them throw pitches, get into favorable counts and hopefully knock them out early and take them out of their game.  They had 66 QS and 87 wins.  A quality start is critical to their winning and the Sox need to take it out.

I had to laugh out loud Mongo because I was already kind of chuckling after reading Cash's comments and then saw yours and almost spit out my coffee!

SeaBeachFred

We certainly showed more plate discipline in our games against the Yankees and especially the series against the Rays.  In fact, if you guys noticed we were taking a lot of first strikes down the cock in many of the games and then watching the opposing pitchers  try to get cute and nibble around trying to get us to chase bad pitches.  Somehow we didn't bite most of the time and often got good pitches to hit.......and hit them.  I wonder if we can carry that over because if we can we have a chance of upsetting the Astros the way we did the Yankees and Rays. That's right UPSETTING THEM because we were underdogs in that game against New York and certainly against the Rays.  I have no doubt we will underdogs against the Astros, a very good team but it does look like we are putting things together pretty well right now.  We will see how this pans out starting Friday.  I think we have a decent chance of actually sending Houston home as well if we play our game.  And Cora has been a totally different manager in these post season games.  To me it is very noticeable.

MongoLikeSox

If we should make it to the WS, all eyes will be on Cora and the 'Sox pitching to see how they recover. The 2019 rebound was horrific. 2020 was a whole different disaster. One cannot blame the pundits for picking 81-81 (+/- 1) based on the two previous seasons compounded with losing our very strong outfield and massive pitching questions. The pitching questions were massive, and is what doomed us last two years. The incomplete list before the season started:

  • Chris Sale(TJ recovery)
  • Richards' comeback
  • ERod health issues already adding to a fragile front line
  • Perez streakiness
  • Can Eovaldi last a season?
  • Pivetta's turnaround - was the 2020 glimpse real?
  • Houck - Was the 2020 sampling real?
  • Can Ottavino rebound?
  • Can Barnes close?
  • Can Taylor rebound?
  • How long will Barnes be out?
  • Will Sawamura transition to US MLB well?
  • Will Whitlock even be usable and respond well?
  • Is there anyone ready in AAA to make the jump for added BP help?
We've gone into seasons with far fewer questions and had horrible pitching.

Add to it the big questions of the limited position players and their desire for flexibility.

  • Will JD rebound?
  • Who will play CF
  • Can Marwin rebound to near 2017 or even the 2018 form?
  • Will Dalbec play a decent 1B?
  • Michael Chavis (Where, how much) and will he transform?
  • Will Renfroe somehow be any better than a whiff/HR guy?
  • What on Earth is a Franchy Cordero?
  • Can we last long enough for Duran to come up?
  • Can we last long enough for Downs to come up?
  • Will Devers reverse trends to turn his defense around - again?
  • Santana - Why????
  • What if we get injured a lot? There is nobody even close ready.

That's a lot of questions for the beginning of a season. That's a lot of hoping it will work. These sorts of roster builds (25 & 40) are rebuild entries. They even brought Cora back to go down with the ship. A lot of things worked well enough. Some surprises in there. Some mistakes some of use get to sit back and bark about.

I have to say that I was stunned to see how wildly this team swung all season.  I was disheartened to see what they did to Houck for the sake of depth. This affects careers, lives, earnings down the road, seniority, pension, etc, etc. It was downright criminal what they did to Houck, and you can add Franchy and Chavis to that list.

Whitlock lasting most of a season? He was protected by the medical staff from Cora. They took off the restraints and sure enough, bicep strain. (Ottavino, Valdez - maybe Barnes???) I'm glad we got Whitlock back. Thanks to Devers for spotting it, as I understand it. Still, it's food for thought. Can't blame Cora. He was doing his job and I'm confident that he got more than reasonable assurances from his pitchers that they were fine for that day's game. I'm not convinced that Bloom would not have done more if he thought they had a chance in the off season.

But all those question marks, mismanagement and poor planning became secondary. They got a group of guys who play their butts off. Their dumb decisions on base-paths and outfield throws are borne of youth, nerves and a strong desire to be the hero of the day. The 2013 team had much better defensive skill, but it was a patchwork group with a lot of heart that had some holes of their own to overcome. Add the tragedy of that year and that storm brewed and brewed.

This team? Same heart, different type of swagger. Tons of unresolved problems that they just said pffffffttttt  what-ever! As such, I propose this very funny song as their theme song. ("In Spite of ourselves" by the late, great Americana/Country legend - John Prine with Iris Dement   It's not always about Led Zep and the Stones here in Mongoland - LOL)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA-vD5pyuS4


longgame

QuoteThey got a group of guys who play their butts off.

That's the bottom line.  We know they are talented, but it seemed like they would take days off as a team during the regular season.  Part of that is just the season, it's long and you can't bring your A game every day.  But when this team brings its A game they're very good. 

One thing I always notice is the intensity of the guys on both teams.  The Sox didn't have that locked in look a lot of the second half of the season, but in the games against the Rays, especially after the comeback and beatdown in Game 2, the Rays had that deer in the healdlights look (except for Arrozarena, that kid is something else) and the Sox had the confident look. 

SeaBeachFred

Quote from: Sea Dog 23 on October 13, 2021, 08:07:16 AM
Quote from: MongoLikeSox on October 13, 2021, 07:40:49 AM
I've also said it many times that I cannot figure out if this was the worst good-team or the best bad team I've seen in some time. I think I'm leaning towards the worst best team ever.

Basically, We hid behind a lot of problems that were really beginning to show themselves.  That's the history of baseball. Some teams overcome bad atrributes early, but baseball catches up and balances the ledger by way of exploiting them.

We could write a book on the Red Sox Covid outbreak silver-lining this season. It worked out so well that a disgruntled Yankees' fan might call foul.

There is a reason this team had to fight on the last day of the season. This teams' foundation was became much better than a 92-win team. What Cora and his greatly handicapped players did was build a city out of that lowest level erector set us poor kids got back in the day and a whole bunch of fumes.

For all his deficiencies as a favoritism laden Manager and his arm burning and pitching misuse, he is re-writing the post-season playbook with the pitching. (fwiw - I think where pitching lands for all of baseball is worthy of a whole other topic.)

Mongo, the pitching in baseball this year is something that GMs will dissect the whole off-season.  You got NYYs Cole that got bombed in the WC,  a steady Rays pitcher McClanahan that we destroyed in the final, the gold standard for Brewers in Hader giving the game winning dinger to Braves.  It goes on and on.  I'm not sure what Bloom will put on his balance sheet after Eovaldi, Sale, Houck and Whitlock.

Sea Dog,you forgot about the Astros' ace McCullough.  He looks our for the whole ALCS so it looks like the aces and fireman of those teams came up short so far and I wonder how the other stalwarts are going to do.  I believe Alex Cora will not hesitate to use his potential starters in relief if he sees a chance to grab a win without testing a couple of our questionable throwers in the bullpen.  I really believe this coming series has to be based on WIN TODAY AND WORRY ABOUT TOMORROW TOMORROW.  For us I think that  has to be the best way forward.

Sea Dog 23

It's way early, but the Sox finished 2021 still short in OF depth.  An early name to keep an eye on in free-agency is Starling Marte who just finished up with the A's after he was acquired at the trade deadling.  His Marlins/A's salary was in effect around $12mil, and his market is probably north of that.  Good contact hitter, in the OF not the best jump on the ball, great on the base paths.  He is a Bloom type acquisition in affordable salary.  Bloom would not bust the budget for Springer last year, and he will not go overboard this year IMO.  Other OF names available are Nick Castellanos, Kris Bryant (pricey?) and our friend Schwarber.

In 156 games, Marte batted .312/.355/.462 with 25 stolen bases for Oakland in 2021. Between Miami and Oakland, Marte stole an MLB-leading 47 bases in 2021.  33 years old.